What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

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All these threads to me have become generic. There are at least 3 threads with "bluewater" in the title going as active in the past few days. Then you add the one about keels a week ago. And the one about rudders the week before.

All of which get presented as some type of "learning" thing but just go down the same old "discussion

You want some cheese with that whine?...I meant to put this in ..lol

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

You want some cheese with that whine?...I meant to put this in ..lol

that was nice and grown up of you

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

\

All these threads to me have become generic. There are at least 3 threads with "bluewater" in the title going as active in the past few days. Then you add the one about keels a week ago. And the one about rudders the week before.

All of which get presented as some type of "learning" thing but just go down the same old "discussion

They are "learning" threads - it's just that some are a bit slower than others to understand the lessons.

Catch up at the back .

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

that was nice and grown up of you

It was rather juvenile...I was just picking on ya...

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

that was nice and grown up of you

Ok. Don don't know if I made it clear before but I would be happy to sail aboard your Hunter.

Further to the case I made before about speed advantages being a bit of a wash in the real world. Lets look again at this year's Carib 1500 cruising class. While a J boat and a Sabre lead the pack, you'll see a Slocum pilothouse, Valiant 40 a Gozzard and an IP holding their own against if not beating out some Jenneaus, Beneteaus and Hylas.

And if you look at the multi class, finish times are no better than the leaderboard for the monos.

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...20Division.pdf

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Further to the case I made before about speed advantages being a bit of a wash in the real world.

I don't disagree with you. I never have gone down the speed path in these discussions. The speed around the points isn't a issue to cruising. So it is just boat length and sail area/displacement.

So in the speed discussion insted of whether your crusier is a full/fin keel, spade/full rubber, internal/external ballast, lets address water line, sail area, and displacement!

[sabray]

Grown up is boring. Here is boring. Bulkhead tabbing is best if strands go through bulkhead and tabbing has been achieved deep into the laminate at multiple layers.I have seen tabbing at the veneer level only. That is not adequate. Deck to hull joint. Different options here good through bolting with backer plates in Nasty sticker stuff with interior structural glass at the joint would be best. This rarely happens.
Keel bolted to grid structure with substantial backer or fully encased modified full keel. See Cambria design for a good grid system.
Structure designed to take loads. The inward hull compression and energy thrown at the keel is oft missed on many sail boats. Lack of detail at compression posts and cabin deck movement result in reduced ability.
Standards. Up in the air at most builders. How they are maintained is a guess. As much as I appreciate Cambria for its design and build the interior ports are trash, held in by screws and aluminum tabs. So a top quality build had crap all holding its ports in. Maybe a tad better the little harbor who likes putting ports in the hull. Blue means to me the owner has some idea what they are sailing. My Peterson has the worst ever port hole design and the foredeck was not built up enough to handle severe loads on the staysl. Means I had to understand this and improve the design.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I don't disagree with you. I never have gone down the speed path in these discussions. The speed around the points isn't a issue to cruising. So it is just boat length and sail area/displacement.

So in the speed discussion insted of whether your crusier is a full/fin keel, spade/full rubber, internal/external ballast, lets address water line, sail area, and displacement!

Yes, not you but you'd have to acknowledge the "my boat's faster than your boat" is pretty representative of one side of the argument.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Yes, not you but you'd have to acknowledge the "my boat's faster than your boat" is pretty representative of one side of the argument.

It always as seemed to me the the times the faster boat would even matter are fairly few as far as the "bad" conditions and distance passages that the topic normally revolves around. Given that with enough warning (like days) a 1 knot per hour speed advantage could really matter, but this assumes you made the right course choice and that was probably mostly a guess to start with.

My boat is pretty fast. It is light and has a good amount of sail. The reason it isn't faster is because of me.

But since you get caught in light winds more often than high winds the faster boat can made some good time over an older boat (why I have been considering a better choice of light wind sails). But if the winds start hitting 20+ and I have reefed down both boats now have the same power/weight.

So far as this goes none of this hull/keel/rudder crap discussion matters. What matters is how your sail handling is setup so you can reef down etc.

[Saltyhog]

Originally Posted by endoftheroad

My boat isn't capable till I become more experienced.

+1

[endoftheroad]

Isn't it true that a heavier boat can carry more stores percentage wise to its displacement and sail better than a lighter boat with same percentage of added weight to its displacement?

Probably I don't know how to say this.

10,000 boat with 2,000 (20%) pounds stores.
20,000 boat with 4,000 (20%) pounds stores.

Isn't the 10,000 pound displacement boat going to loose a GREATER percentage of SAILING EFFIENCY carrying the same percentage of load per its displacement?

If so, then a HEAVY displacement boat is a better bluewater boat.

[sailorboy1]

You can play with the numbers all you what, but in the end it is just sail area and displacement/weight and whether that displacement is due to the boat or stores doesn't matter. It is like putting lipstick on a pig!

I have no idea what sailing efficiency is, but I would guess that a super light boat with a long deep fin to hold it upright, and lots of sail area is the most efficient (which is why racing boats are designed as such).

So from that I don't know how you got to your conclusion.

But I have this sense you need to win in order to believe that your Westsail is the best, so I give and you win!

PS - who is to even say what the displacement/weight number is based on for most boats? In the old days I bet none were designed for a X displacement, it was just what resulted. It has always confounded me that an old boat with large overhangs and narrow beam could be displacing more water that a boat with a plum bow and flat stern that has 2' more beam for a given overall length. With full tanks, 400# of anchor/chain, my fat ass, and guests my boat is still floating 4" from its' designed waterlin, I not too worried about the weight of ships' stores.

[endoftheroad]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

You can play with the numbers all you what, but in the end it is just sail area and displacement/weight and whether that displacement is due to the boat or stores doesn't matter. It is like putting lipstick on a pig!

I have no idea what sailing efficiency is, but I would guess that a super light boat with a long deep fin to hold it upright, and lots of sail area is the most efficient (which is why racing boats are designed as such).

So from that I don't know how you got to your conclusion.

But I have this sense you need to win in order to believe that your Westsail is the best, so I give and you win!

PS - who is to even say what the displacement/weight number is based on for most boats? In the old days I bet none were designed for a X displacement, it was just what resulted. It has always confounded me that an old boat with large overhangs and narrow beam could be displacing more water that a boat with a plum bow and flat stern that has 2' more beam for a given overall length. With full tanks, 400# of anchor/chain, my fat ass, and guests my boat is still floating 4" from its' designed waterlin, I not too worried about the weight of ships' stores.

Don......
That's a cheapshot and wasn't fair.
My post was simply a question to undertand this thread better.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by endoftheroad

Don......
That's a cheapshot and wasn't fair.
My post was simply a question to undertand this thread better.

Yes, I'm sorry and take it back!

think I also missread your post and will take another look.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by endoftheroad

Isn't it true that a heavier boat can carry more stores percentage wise to its displacement and sail better than a lighter boat with same percentage of added weight to its displacement?

Probably I don't know how to say this.

10,000 boat with 2,000 (20%) pounds stores.
20,000 boat with 4,000 (20%) pounds stores.

Isn't the 10,000 pound displacement boat going to loose a GREATER percentage of SAILING EFFIENCY carrying the same percentage of load per its displacement?

If so, then a HEAVY displacement boat is a better bluewater boat.

I don't think in your 2 boats and loads it makes a difference. Given the same starting SA/disp they both take the same hit as a power loss as a percentage.

But if this is a crusing couple, they probably take along about the same ship stores regardless. So lets say 2000# either way. If they put this on the 20,000# boat they take a smaller hit in performance.

Also the 20,000# boat is bigger to start with. We have this discussion, but far I'm concerned once out in the open as long as you can handle your sails well, bigger is always going to be better!