What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

[Bash]

Originally Posted by RabidRabbit

Learners curve, 5 years from now you'll realize what a silly question it is.

+1. Used 1999 Bluewater Yachts 51, Branson, Mo - 65616 - BoatTrader.com

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

You haven't used AIS.

That's a huge difference in maritime safety.

So my list of advances electronically
GPS,
Information Disemination while at sea... Mainly I mean satellite
Chart Plotters
AIS
EPIRBs

On equipment side the advances:
design advances
CAD computer aided design or whatever they call it in boat building
Materials... everything really, including the 'exotics' of carbon fiber etc but all materials are pretty different now...
The production line abilities now, and moulding, injection infusion methods.
Equipment advances: everything on the boat from anchors to sheets and sailcloth.

Yes, I have used AIS and LOVE it. I just don't think that was one of the drivers in ramping up cruising numbers.

[nes]

Well if you could ask Joshua Slocum what makes a boat blue water capable, you would hear about the Spray, the boat that he successfully circumnavigated in (46,000 miles the way that he went). However, if you asked the experts later (after he disappeared), you would find that it was amazing that the boat did not kill him sooner as it would capsize at a fairly low amount of heel. He was the first to make the trip (1895-1898), and did not have a forum to ask advice on what made a blue water capable cruiser. Of course he did not have the modern convenience of electronic navigation equipment or for that matter even a good clock.
What I got from his accomplishment is a repeat statement from another on this forum, what makes a boat blue water capable, is THE SKIPPER.
His book (Joshua Slocum) makes for an interesting read "Sailing Alone Around The World"
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1120084 Thanks Vasco!


See also Joshua Slocum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Randyonr3]

Its a changing of the times.... and its all relitive....

In the 1906, an automobile was built called a "Brush" and claimed to be the newest iinovation with Horsepower of 6 and a daily range of 25 miles.. Some now commute to work 100 miles or more each way.
Richard Branson with "Virgin Galactic" has shown we dont need a saturn 5 rocket for space travel.
And we can run a home completely of energy from the sun..
Why would anyone think advancements in boating, both sail or motor be any different..
And the next "new age" cruising sailboat will ride on foils beneath the water, giving both ultimate comfort and speed..

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by nes

Well if you could ask Joshua Slocum what makes a boat blue water capable, you would hear about the Spray, the boat that he successfully circumnavigated in (46,000 miles the way that he went). However, if you asked the experts later (after he disappeared), you would find that it was amazing that the boat did not kill him sooner as it would capsize at a fairly low amount of heel. He was the first to make the trip (1895-1898), and did not have a forum to ask advice on what made a blue water capable cruiser. Of course he did not have the modern convenience of electronic navigation equipment or for that matter even a good clock.
What I got from his accomplishment is a repeat statement from another on this forum, what makes a boat blue water capable, is THE SKIPPER.
His book makes for an interesting read "Sailing Alone Around The World"
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1120084 Thanks Vasco!


See also Joshua Slocum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I suspect most of us on this forum have read Slocum's book - many of us multiple times. After all, it's the classic of the sailing adventure genre.

While Spray may not have been the most seaworthy of boats (being shoal draft, as I recall), it doesn't mean that she wasn't in the ballpark or that she didn't have certain important qualities - at least in a contemporary context (Slocum lauded her ability to keep a track once indefinitely with the helm tied over).

I thought I'd read that speculation ran deep that he was run down by a steamer and it wasn't the qualities of the boat (or lack thereof) that caused his loss.

In any case, Spray was not representative of yachts at all or even working boats circa 1898. She was already quite old by the time Slocum acquired her as a gift.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Its a changing of the times.... and its all relitive....

In the 1906, an automobile was built called a "Brush" and claimed to be the newest iinovation with Horsepower of 6 and a daily range of 25 miles.. Some now commute to work 100 miles or more each way.
Richard Branson with "Virgin Galactic" has shown we dont need a saturn 5 rocket for space travel.
And we can run a home completely of energy from the sun..
Why would anyone think advancements in boating, both sail or motor be any different..
And the next "new age" cruising sailboat will ride on foils beneath the water, giving both ultimate comfort and speed..

We never did need a Saturn V to get into space - we needed one to get to the moon. I suspect Richard Branson would be the first to tell you that his "mothership" method of achieving suborbital flight isn't suitable for much more than poking a relatively small package through the window to space.

[nes]

Originally Posted by sneuman

I suspect most of us on this forum have read Slocum's book - many of us multiple times. After all, it's the classic of the sailing adventure genre.

While Spray may not have been the most seaworthy of boats (being shoal draft, as I recall), it doesn't mean that she wasn't in the ballpark or that she didn't have certain important qualities - at least in a contemporary context (Slocum lauded her ability to keep a track once indefinitely with the helm tied over).

I thought I'd read that speculation ran deep that he was run down by a steamer and it wasn't the qualities of the boat (or lack thereof) that caused his loss.

In any case, Spray was not representative of yachts at all or even working boats circa 1898. She was already quite old by the time Slocum acquired her as a gift.

The following is from BOTH Wikipedia and the book:
Disappearance

In November 1909, Slocum set sail for the West Indies on one of his usual winter voyages. He had also expressed interest in starting his next adventure, exploring the Orinoco, Rio Negro and Amazon Rivers.[12] Slocum was never heard from again. In July 1910, his wife informed the newspapers that she believed he was lost at sea.
At the time, most who knew Slocum believed that the Spray had been run down by a steamer or struck by a whale, the Spray being too sound a craft and Slocum too experienced a mariner for any other cause to be considered likely.[citation needed]
Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier.[citation needed]
Despite being an experienced mariner, Slocum never learned to swim and considered learning to be useless.
In 1924, Joshua Slocum was declared legally dead.[c

[GrowleyMonster]

Slocum was definitely an early shoestring sailor. Even by the standards of rhe day he got by on the cheap. He was one of my first real inspirations. Btw you can download his book for free (i think the good captain would approve) from the Gutenberg project site, along with his other book which is also a good read.

His experience, knowledge, and resourcefulness nust not be discounted. The average newbie would be quite lucky to complete the voyage with the same equipment. Captain Slocum is a classic example of a good skipper succeding with a marginal boat, and i would be rather nervous about todays typical yachtsman attempting the same voyage with the same boat and gear.

[nes]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Slocum was definitely an early shoestring sailor. Even by the standards of rhe day he got by on the cheap. He was one of my first real inspirations. Btw you can download his book for free (i think the good captain would approve) from the Gutenberg project site, along with his other book which is also a good read.

His experience, knowledge, and resourcefulness nust not be discounted. The average newbie would be quite lucky to complete the voyage with the same equipment. Captain Slocum is a classic example of a good skipper succeding with a marginal boat, and i would be rather nervous about todays typical yachtsman attempting the same voyage with the same boat and gear.

Exactly my point. It is the SKIPPER that makes the difference.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by sneuman

... and now that I think of it, I'd add EPIRB (i.e., the perceived availability of instant rescue) and the Internet/sat phones (i.e., the ability to communicate with friends and family) to the list.

So ... I'd argue that the revolution in cruising has been almost entirely one of electronics and communications.

In short, these are the things that have made a difference:

GPS
Weatherfax (or more generally, the easy availability of good weather info)
EPIRB
Internet and satellite communication

Take those away and we're right back to Moistessier and Chichester.

[zeehag]

what makes a good blue water cruising sailboat???
might as well ask
what makes a good formula one racing car driver--th eanswer is exactly the same, unless you ask markj, in which case,

5 minimums?
Ok
1) It must be very old
2) the keel must be very long and wide and heavy. It's long enough if it pokes out in front of the boat.
3) the mast must go through a hole in the deck so water can come inside the boat and keep the salon nice and wet. It can keep going on down through the keel to the other side.
4) Small and smelly. Instead of a bed you need a little tube that can fit a sleeping bag. You don't actually sleep with your wife but you can send emails. Old boats smell like the sea! this is because the deck leaks.
5) Instead of one mast and two sails the rig must be simpler by having more masts and more sails, more rigging, more ropey bits and sailor-like stuff... But none of the lines can come back to the cockpit because its too small to have a winch so you do all the work on deck where its leaking into the cabin.

You will love the boat! Your wife will find another man to love.


Mark

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by nes

The following is from BOTH Wikipedia and the book:
Disappearance

In November 1909, Slocum set sail for the West Indies on one of his usual winter voyages. He had also expressed interest in starting his next adventure, exploring the Orinoco, Rio Negro and Amazon Rivers.[12] Slocum was never heard from again. In July 1910, his wife informed the newspapers that she believed he was lost at sea.
At the time, most who knew Slocum believed that the Spray had been run down by a steamer or struck by a whale, the Spray being too sound a craft and Slocum too experienced a mariner for any other cause to be considered likely.[citation needed]
Years later, an analysis by Howard I. Chapelle, curator of maritime history at the Smithsonian Institution and a noted expert on small sailing-craft, demonstrated that the Spray was stable under most circumstances but could easily capsize if heeled beyond a relatively shallow angle. He felt that Slocum was merely lucky that his unstable vessel had not killed him earlier.[citation needed]
Despite being an experienced mariner, Slocum never learned to swim and considered learning to be useless.
In 1924, Joshua Slocum was declared legally dead.[c

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

If Spray was marginal and it was only Slocum's skill as a seaman that made the difference, you're then suggesting that his luck ran out, he capsized and drowned?

If so, ultimately being a "good skipper" was not enough to overcome a substandard craft. I daresay, under those circumstances, his inability to swim would not have made much difference. In any case, Chapelle's analysis doesn't do anything but add to the speculation. He merely notes (at least from what's written above) that Spray was prone to capsize. He doesn't seem to have any hard evidence that's what actually happened. After all, Slocum had made it around the world without a problem, so why would capsize/drowning be any more likely than the theory that he was simply run down?

... and if he was indeed run-down by a steamer, that probably says more about the skipper than it does the boat.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Captain Slocum is a classic example of a good skipper succeding with a marginal boat, and i would be rather nervous about todays typical yachtsman attempting the same voyage with the same boat and gear.

Spray was one of three boats that Slocum lost. The Washington, of which he was master but not owner, dragged anchor in a gale in Alaska and broke up on shore. The Aquidneck was wrecked on a sandbar in Southern Brazil.

That Slocum was a great adventurer there can be no doubt. His record as a mariner, unfortunately, left significant room for improvement.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Bash

Spray was one of three boats that Slocum lost. The Washington, of which he was master but not owner, dragged anchor in a gale in Alaska and broke up on shore. The Aquidneck was wrecked on a sandbar in Southern Brazil.

That Slocum was a great adventurer there can be no doubt. His record as a mariner, unfortunately, left significant room for improvement.

yes, I had forgotten that. Good point.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Yes, I have used AIS and LOVE it. I just don't think that was one of the drivers in ramping up cruising numbers.

I agree with that, but isn't the discussion about what a Blue Water boat is? I think it ads to safety.

You are right AIS hasn't led to a ramping of cruising number because I don't think it has the penetration amongst cruisers yet (as can be seen by the anti-AIS lobby on this forum), and its only one of several advances. Newbys do have a fear of being run down by ships... And that fear goes back to Slocumb! He didn't arrive so people said he was run down by a ship! Or whale! Or hit by a container 70 years before they were invented.

Do you think that greater comforts on board have improved seaworthiness? Say, for example, the ice maker and a comfy chair means a couple can have a Marghurita Sundowner at sea therefore be more relaxed and attuned to their sailing? More comfy beds (dry ones) mean people,get better sleep, etc.