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**carstenb** · 08-01-2013, 04:32

Dave,

I'll take my knocks. As I noted, I've had one myself and never had any problems. I'll reserve the right to be a bit leery of it in very high winds.

My flaking mainsail can be reefed or flaked completely (dutchman system) from the cockpit (I have rigged the reefing system for singlehanded sailing - one line per reef led back to the cockpit), so I don't have to wake the watch, just because I want to reef.

But I do agree that they have gotten better over time - and that generally it is during unfurling that they jam (but these jams are due to poor furling technique)

goboatingnow · 08-01-2013, 04:35

Quote:

But I do agree that they have gotten better over time - and that generally it is during unfurling that they jam (but these jams are due to poor furling technique)

Correct , at least thats safer, then jamming on the way in, The main issue is over enthusiastic grinding on increasing more powerful winches as a jam builds up. I can furl on a 40 footer in light winds just using the lines and no need for a winch. The other thing that helps is an oversized mast as most jams are the sail bending back on itself and jamming against the mast inside.

**carstenb** · 08-01-2013, 04:58

I suspect that the arguments on rolling mainsails will end up like the arguments cruisers had about furling genoas (remember those? You can't trim a furling genoa. In a storm you can't steer properly. No way to set a storm sail yada yada yada yada) I would ask how many of those on this site DON'T have a furling Genoa?

Noone? I rest my case.

K_V_B · 08-01-2013, 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No "big " windows, whats big in the day of modern laminated glass thats virtually a structural component.

Big windows actually make a boat more "bluewater capable" in some respects. Many people (me included) get seasick. Being able to look at the horizon while working in the galley or at the chart table is an absolute must for me.
So big windows will make some skippers and crew more comfortable, which is a desirable feature in a bluewater yacht.

K_V_B · 08-01-2013, 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb

I suspect that the arguments on rolling mainsails will end up like the arguments cruisers had about furling genoas (remember those? You can't trim a furling genoa. In a storm you can't steer properly. No way to set a storm sail yada yada yada yada) I would ask how many of those on this site DON'T have a furling Genoa?

We have a furling Genoa on the family boat. It has jammed on a few occasions, where we would then just wrap the genoa around the stay by hand. (Granted, this is just a 23 footer, I never tried this on a bigger boat).
I wonder what you do when this happens to a mainsail furler.

I think however the main argument against a main sail furler is the added weight of the system, and the reduced mainsail area. I've sailed with boats with furled mains, and personally never liked them.

sv_steadfast · 08-01-2013, 05:13

You can spend thousands doing up a boat for "blue water cruising". Most of it is contingency planning... the ever present "what if's?".
At the end of the day, a boat is ready for cruising when you think it is good and ready. Be aware of your skills and experience as a skipper, know your vessel and start slowly.
We learnt everything once we started hopping up the coast... each port we had a new grasp of what our boat was needing and what had to be tossed...

One thing I learnt, as we went cruising in our 20's and were inundated with advice about what our boat needed etc... we learnt later that most of the people giving the advice had never sailed more than 50 miles up the coast... IF THAT...
Be careful what you listen to...

Randyonr3 · 08-01-2013, 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sv_steadfast

One thing I learnt, as we went cruising in our 20's and were inundated with advice about what our boat needed etc... we learnt later that most of the people giving the advice had never sailed more than 50 miles up the coast... IF THAT...
Be careful what you listen to...

Yes, Could not agree more. We've found the more we're on the water full time, and going on 10 years, the less we find we need. Haven't had a life jacket on in years, harness and teather at night, yes, and I have to chuckle at some of.the items that some seem to say that is needed to go cruising .....

sailorboy1 · 08-01-2013, 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Yes, Could not agree more. We've found the more we're on the water full time, and going on 10 years, the less we find we need. Haven't had a life jacket on in years, harness and teather at night, yes, and I have to chuckle at some of.the items that some seem to say that is needed to go cruising .....

I have read these stories before, but it would be interesting for me if you posted what items you believed you had to have at the start that you now don't feel were needed and/or worth having spent the money on.

goboatingnow · 08-01-2013, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B

....

I think however the main argument against a main sail furler is the added weight of the system, and the reduced mainsail area. I've sailed with boats with furled mains, and personally never liked them.

Not to branch off into in-mast land , but in general a lot of this type of stuff came from the early retrofit days. These days, the boat is typically designed to be fitted with In mast and the stability etc is done with that in mind. Equally so with sail area, Though today main masts are nearly in the cockpit, the foretriangle has got so big , that I wonder have designers forgotten the main is there at all.

dave

tropicalescape · 08-01-2013, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Oversized this and that ( oversized from what, and why "oversized").

No "big " windows, whats big in the day of modern laminated glass thats virtually a structural component.

Curved or straight furniture, tends to be driven by the design aesthetic , ie what the punter wants. Deep coamings ( knockdown trip hazard) , Hull deck joint, havent you read up on modern structural adhesives.!.

As for " Heavy Duty " winches at all, How do you know what "heavy duty " is , if you mean oversized, well thats just bad design and engineering and in some cases actually dangerous . No you want proper deck gear from a reliable brand , like Harken, Lewmar, Anderson, Mast from Seldon et al, designed for cruising. Most boats have this stuff, and it rarely gives much trouble if looked after,

in my case id look for
(a) Good brand name boat, hence good feedback from users, resale etc.
(b) Adequate water and diesel tankage consistent with engine and the fact that its a sail boat,
(c) Large enough , 35 foot + being ideal.
(d) Good brand name deck gear
(e) Facility to sleep at sea, while providing comforts at anchor
(f) excellant galley, food is mega
(g) Good reliable engine from a major brand, regularly serviced

Everything else is trivial, or I can add it, or it doesn't really matter,

dave

Yea you guys are right one more time, and someone else is wrong again!Morris yachts and Pacific Seacraft should start building yachts with big portlights and the same size winches and rigging that you would find on a Hunter 25,they should also spread the thru fastners out to maybe 16 inchs along the deck to hull joint,and do away with all fiddels and while they are at it they should do away with coamings altogether,they sure could save a lot of money by building boats the way that some of the bigger companys do it and then they could drop there prices and compete with the likes of Bene,Hunter and all of the other companys that are building great world crusers at less than half the price of a Morris,I dont see how Morris can charge as much as they do for their products when it is obvious that the boats they build are not any different then a Hunter...

**sneuman** · 08-01-2013, 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Oversized this and that ( oversized from what, and why "oversized").

No "big " windows, whats big in the day of modern laminated glass thats virtually a structural component.

Curved or straight furniture, tends to be driven by the design aesthetic , ie what the punter wants. Deep coamings ( knockdown trip hazard) , Hull deck joint, havent you read up on modern structural adhesives.!.

As for " Heavy Duty " winches at all, How do you know what "heavy duty " is , if you mean oversized, well thats just bad design and engineering and in some cases actually dangerous . No you want proper deck gear from a reliable brand , like Harken, Lewmar, Anderson, Mast from Seldon et al, designed for cruising. Most boats have this stuff, and it rarely gives much trouble if looked after,

in my case id look for
(a) Good brand name boat, hence good feedback from users, resale etc.
(b) Adequate water and diesel tankage consistent with engine and the fact that its a sail boat,
(c) Large enough , 35 foot + being ideal.
(d) Good brand name deck gear
(e) Facility to sleep at sea, while providing comforts at anchor
(f) excellant galley, food is mega
(g) Good reliable engine from a major brand, regularly serviced

Everything else is trivial, or I can add it, or it doesn't really matter,

dave

There are "undersized" winches. Just a few weeks ago, I went aboard a dockmate's boat (insert very popular brand here) and had to winch him away from the finger pier during a nor'easter. The winches were completely inadequate to the task - very tiny. I have no idea, frankly, how he could use them for jib sheets in anything other than light-air conditions. There was one (slightly) larger winch on the cabin top near the companionway, but it was not a good fairlead for my purposes.

... and, to be perfectly honest, I think the winches on the cockpit combing on my boat (Lewmar #46) are about one size too small.

tropicalescape · 08-01-2013, 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable? NOT opinions that's for sure!

Don Casey , John Cherabini and Ted Brewers opinions dont matter,"thats for sure!

Randyonr3 · 08-01-2013, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I have read these stories before, but it would be interesting for me if you posted what items you believed you had to have at the start that you now don't feel were needed and/or worth having spent the money on.

I kinda feel I'm.one of the lucky ones as I had a few years of sailing before I bought the boat we have so had a wee bit of experance.
But if I was just starting out, I wouldn't get.to involved into what make or model but just buy a good solid boat and go for a year or so, and build your wants and dislikes. Then come back and buy and outfit per your needs.
Forget all those.goodies at west marine.
As I've said before, whenever we've stopped anywhere, the boat, keel type or size seldom comes up, its more of where to get a good burger and icecream.
Most any boat will put up with more abuse than you can put up with. And you make it blue water buy the way you plot your travels.
The items I would put at the top of my list are a dry boat first as your attitude in cruising needs to be up-beat and wet cloths and bedding is a bummer.
Good food is next as you need to stay healthy.
And you need the little.extras as a plus, as a hot shower is a big deal to me with dry cloths.
Or a hot cup of tea.on an evening watch..
It's the little things that make a boat bluewater.
And I.hate to say it, but its not the boat but the way you use it, that makes it blue water.

tropicalescape · 08-01-2013, 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Big windows actually make a boat more "bluewater capable" in some respects. Many people (me included) get seasick. Being able to look at the horizon while working in the galley or at the chart table is an absolute must for me.
So big windows will make some skippers and crew more comfortable, which is a desirable feature in a bluewater yacht.

No offense to you but, why do people go sailing if it makes them sick? I would think that if an airline pilot were to get sick when he went flying he would not have a job! So now we have a "bluewater boat" with big sections of glass and a skipper that gets sick..I dont fill like that is a good "blue water" boat or skipper!...just a thought...