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Old 06-01-2013, 13:33   #241
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by endoftheroad View Post
Once again, I'm not referring anything about a Westsail.

I dont know what a Pogo is, but can it carry the weight for long distance and still sail?
Or does it take catching fish and rainwater to be floating along side icebergs?
Well, I am. To me, neither Westsail nor Pogo are anything out of ordinary. Just two examples of what a bluewater boat may be. I think blue water is a pretty vast space and while the boat is a tool for a job, the rest is up to her owner.

Try Google some. Pogo and the likes are out there - plying happily the oceans along with some older, heavier designs.

A light boat may sail faster and thus need to carry less water, less diesel and less provisions. Also, her anchor rode, mast sections, standing rigging, engine and adjacent hardware may be lighter again adding to faster sailing, shorter passage times (= again, less payload).

The fish rainwater iceberg drift I did not get.

b.
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Old 06-01-2013, 14:05   #242
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
So, I sail a Tayana 37, 650+ which have been made from about 1975-present (although the "line" has been silent since about the mid-90s). Would you consider that a production boat? I would.
I'm not sure I would but what do I know

Boats like mine (Nor'sea) have been around, maybe just as long with about mid 500's being built. I wouldn't call it a production boat.

Out of curiosity, how many does Catalina, Hunter or the other makers produce a year?
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Old 06-01-2013, 14:14   #243
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Out of curiosity, how many does Catalina, Hunter or the other makers produce a year?
I can't find the stats for Catalina and Hunter but Beneteau is about 4,000 per year, Jeaneau 3,500, Bavaria about the same.
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Old 07-01-2013, 05:55   #244
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

But whether it's 600 total or 6,000 boats annually, any manufacturer that has any chance of staying in business is going to build to a price point the market will bear. Many yards are now out of business not because they couldn't sell boats but because their manufacturing techniques were not efficient enough or their cost structure didn't make sense. In that regard, the Beneteau and the Hunter people deserve a lot of credit.

Now, I do believe that the need to sell 6,000 of something each year rather than 600 over two decades does influence design - there probably aren't 6,000 buyers/year out there for a lot of traditional designs.
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:39   #245
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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the Hunter people deserve a lot of credit.
I agree with you but point out Hunter went into Chapter 11 Bankrupcy protection

Hunter Marine parent company files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy | Gainesville.com
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:50   #246
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
But whether it's 600 total or 6,000 boats annually, any manufacturer that has any chance of staying in business is going to build to a price point the market will bear. Many yards are now out of business not because they couldn't sell boats but because their manufacturing techniques were not efficient enough or their cost structure didn't make sense. In that regard, the Beneteau and the Hunter people deserve a lot of credit.

Now, I do believe that the need to sell 6,000 of something each year rather than 600 over two decades does influence design - there probably aren't 6,000 buyers/year out there for a lot of traditional designs.
based on the number of manufacturers left in that category, Id suggest humbly that there arnt 60.

Dave
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:59   #247
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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based on the number of manufacturers left in that category, Id suggest humbly that there arnt 60.

Dave
And to the extent that's true, it's probably as much about cost as preferences.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:01   #248
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

I have a production boat. A jeanneau racer/cruiser or more properly a cruiser/racer. Anyway, it will sail along just fine with an equally sized X-yacht, so it is a pretty fast boat. 8.5 tons for a 40 footer, some would say a bit on the light side. Mx loading according to Jeanneau is 2.5 tons.

I am going to take this RTW, and I feel perfectly comfortable doing it. It is a tough boat and will virtually anything that can be dished out.

Regarding speed, lets face it, few cruisers, unless their boat are huge average mor than 6-6.5 knots.

I agree with Don. Both his boat and mine will make it if we are so inclined. So will most production boats. Now if you want to take it into the ice pack...........
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Old 07-01-2013, 21:07   #249
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Not that the following makes a boat "blue water"but if the following are on a boat it would tell the intent of the designer ieversize rigging,a substantial deck to hull bond(screws and rivets every six inches),double life lines,hand holds all along the cabin trunk inside and out,hard contact points around the stove for saftey line,gimbled stove,minimal amount of things that could go flying around such as, the number and size of sole access panels,no wide open spaces and all corners rounded,high fiddels,lockers with fiddels and heavy duty hardware,heavy duty stem fitting,no big windows or exrta large ports,heavy duty winches,blocks,heavy duty traveler,oversized boom,backing plates on all things that are thru bolted,high coamings,low free board,protected prop etc..I looked at a boat that I know was designed for bluewater sailing and then at a big ole dock queen and the things I mention above were on the "blue water boat" but not the"popular dock queen"..The dock queen was advertised as a coastal cruser when it came out so I think this is a fair repersentation of what is and what isnt made for "blue water" sailing at least when they come from the factory...
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Old 07-01-2013, 22:18   #250
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable? NOT opinions that's for sure!
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Old 07-01-2013, 23:27   #251
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

No, you must be lying.I am shocked. Very well put and very funny.

Coops.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:27   #252
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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eversize rigging,a substantial deck to hull bond(screws and rivets every six inches),double life lines,hand holds all along the cabin trunk inside and out,hard contact points around the stove for saftey line,gimbled stove,minimal amount of things that could go flying around such as, the number and size of sole access panels,no wide open spaces and all corners rounded,high fiddels,lockers with fiddels and heavy duty hardware,heavy duty stem fitting,no big windows or exrta large ports,heavy duty winches,blocks,heavy duty traveler,oversized boom,backing plates on all things that are thru bolted,high coamings,low free board,protected prop
Oversized this and that ( oversized from what, and why "oversized").

No "big " windows, whats big in the day of modern laminated glass thats virtually a structural component.

Curved or straight furniture, tends to be driven by the design aesthetic , ie what the punter wants. Deep coamings ( knockdown trip hazard) , Hull deck joint, havent you read up on modern structural adhesives.!.

As for " Heavy Duty " winches at all, How do you know what "heavy duty " is , if you mean oversized, well thats just bad design and engineering and in some cases actually dangerous . No you want proper deck gear from a reliable brand , like Harken, Lewmar, Anderson, Mast from Seldon et al, designed for cruising. Most boats have this stuff, and it rarely gives much trouble if looked after,

in my case id look for
(a) Good brand name boat, hence good feedback from users, resale etc.
(b) Adequate water and diesel tankage consistent with engine and the fact that its a sail boat,
(c) Large enough , 35 foot + being ideal.
(d) Good brand name deck gear
(e) Facility to sleep at sea, while providing comforts at anchor
(f) excellant galley, food is mega
(g) Good reliable engine from a major brand, regularly serviced

Everything else is trivial, or I can add it, or it doesn't really matter,

dave
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:57   #253
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Oversized this and that ( oversized from what, and why "oversized").

No "big " windows, whats big in the day of modern laminated glass thats virtually a structural component.

Curved or straight furniture, tends to be driven by the design aesthetic , ie what the punter wants. Deep coamings ( knockdown trip hazard) , Hull deck joint, havent you read up on modern structural adhesives.!.

As for " Heavy Duty " winches at all, How do you know what "heavy duty " is , if you mean oversized, well thats just bad design and engineering and in some cases actually dangerous . No you want proper deck gear from a reliable brand , like Harken, Lewmar, Anderson, Mast from Seldon et al, designed for cruising. Most boats have this stuff, and it rarely gives much trouble if looked after,

in my case id look for
(a) Good brand name boat, hence good feedback from users, resale etc.
(b) Adequate water and diesel tankage consistent with engine and the fact that its a sail boat,
(c) Large enough , 35 foot + being ideal.
(d) Good brand name deck gear
(e) Facility to sleep at sea, while providing comforts at anchor
(f) excellant galley, food is mega
(g) Good reliable engine from a major brand, regularly serviced

Everything else is trivial, or I can add it, or it doesn't really matter,

dave

Good advice, I would add look to the sail plan. If you are truly only cruising - buy a boat with a cruising plan. Do not get a boat that is rigged for racing.

I'll also venture into an area where I'll get knocked about. For serious OCEAN cruising, I would avoid a furling mainsail.

I know they have gotten better (I've had one myself), and that they rarely jam, but out in the middle of nowhere with 50+ knot winds, I'll take a standard sail anytime. If flaking a mainsail is abhorrent to you, buy a Dutchman system.

You can also set a regular mainsail better than you can a roller. The roller won't have battens, unless you go the vertical batten route. I'm not convinced yet that this is as good as horizontal.

Having said the above - if you are coastal cruising and will avoid really heavy weather, then a rolling mainsail is easy, comfortable and not a problem

OK guys - beat me to death because of the above opinion

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:18   #254
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
in my case id look for
(a) Good brand name boat, hence good feedback from users, resale etc.
(b) Adequate water and diesel tankage consistent with engine and the fact that its a sail boat,
(c) Large enough , 35 foot + being ideal.
(d) Good brand name deck gear
(e) Facility to sleep at sea, while providing comforts at anchor
(f) excellant galley, food is mega
(g) Good reliable engine from a major brand, regularly serviced

Everything else is trivial, or I can add it, or it doesn't really matter,

dave
I think that is a nice (and sucinct!) summary (yer could have posted it on page 1 - could have shorten the thread by a dozen pages!) - at the risk of stating the obvious (? ), I would only add that the boat in decent overall condition. Somewhere above floating project but not neccesarily up to 110% perfect......
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:18   #255
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Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

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I'll also venture into an area where I'll get knocked about. For serious OCEAN cruising, I would avoid a furling mainsail.

I know they have gotten better (I've had one myself), and that they rarely jam, but out in the middle of nowhere with 50+ knot winds, I'll take a standard sail anytime. If flaking a mainsail is abhorrent to you, buy a Dutchman system.

You can also set a regular mainsail better than you can a roller. The roller won't have battens, unless you go the vertical batten route. I'm not convinced yet that this is as good as horizontal.

Having said the above - if you are coastal cruising and will avoid really heavy weather, then a rolling mainsail is easy, comfortable and not a problem
Having delivered many, Id say In mast Mains have an unwarranted reputation.

Firstly you have teh advantage ( in a proper seup) That you can reef on any point of sail from the cockpit, This is a really really big plus for a shorthanded crew, If you have to wake the off watch to reef or shake out, then its a real PITA.

Secondly Jams are rare, ONCE, you have learned whats important ( a, clew tension, boom attitude and stop bloody grinding on a jam!).

Most jams are actually when trying to unfurl, not furl and almost , outside of gear failure, a function of poor furling technique. The opt quoted fear of not being able to furl in high winds, is actually the least likely to happen, Ive had more trouble with fully battened mains and the associated hardware.

PS, avoid vertical battens in an in-mast, If a batten exits its almost impossible to unfurl the sail. Im not a fan of battens at all in any sail.

dave
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