Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-01-2013, 16:45   #211
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
\

All these threads to me have become generic. There are at least 3 threads with "bluewater" in the title going as active in the past few days. Then you add the one about keels a week ago. And the one about rudders the week before.

All of which get presented as some type of "learning" thing but just go down the same old "discussion
You want some cheese with that whine?...I meant to put this in ..lol
__________________

__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 16:50   #212
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicalescape View Post
You want some cheese with that whine?...I meant to put this in ..lol
that was nice and grown up of you
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 16:56   #213
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
\

All these threads to me have become generic. There are at least 3 threads with "bluewater" in the title going as active in the past few days. Then you add the one about keels a week ago. And the one about rudders the week before.

All of which get presented as some type of "learning" thing but just go down the same old "discussion
They are "learning" threads - it's just that some are a bit slower than others to understand the lessons.

Catch up at the back .
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 16:56   #214
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
that was nice and grown up of you
It was rather juvenile...I was just picking on ya...
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 17:05   #215
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post

that was nice and grown up of you
Ok. Don don't know if I made it clear before but I would be happy to sail aboard your Hunter.

Further to the case I made before about speed advantages being a bit of a wash in the real world. Lets look again at this year's Carib 1500 cruising class. While a J boat and a Sabre lead the pack, you'll see a Slocum pilothouse, Valiant 40 a Gozzard and an IP holding their own against if not beating out some Jenneaus, Beneteaus and Hylas.

And if you look at the multi class, finish times are no better than the leaderboard for the monos.

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...20Division.pdf
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 17:15   #216
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Further to the case I made before about speed advantages being a bit of a wash in the real world.
I don't disagree with you. I never have gone down the speed path in these discussions. The speed around the points isn't a issue to cruising. So it is just boat length and sail area/displacement.

So in the speed discussion insted of whether your crusier is a full/fin keel, spade/full rubber, internal/external ballast, lets address water line, sail area, and displacement!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 17:20   #217
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
Grown up is boring. Here is boring. Bulkhead tabbing is best if strands go through bulkhead and tabbing has been achieved deep into the laminate at multiple layers.I have seen tabbing at the veneer level only. That is not adequate. Deck to hull joint. Different options here good through bolting with backer plates in Nasty sticker stuff with interior structural glass at the joint would be best. This rarely happens.
Keel bolted to grid structure with substantial backer or fully encased modified full keel. See Cambria design for a good grid system.
Structure designed to take loads. The inward hull compression and energy thrown at the keel is oft missed on many sail boats. Lack of detail at compression posts and cabin deck movement result in reduced ability.
Standards. Up in the air at most builders. How they are maintained is a guess. As much as I appreciate Cambria for its design and build the interior ports are trash, held in by screws and aluminum tabs. So a top quality build had crap all holding its ports in. Maybe a tad better the little harbor who likes putting ports in the hull. Blue means to me the owner has some idea what they are sailing. My Peterson has the worst ever port hole design and the foredeck was not built up enough to handle severe loads on the staysl. Means I had to understand this and improve the design.
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 17:20   #218
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post

I don't disagree with you. I never have gone down the speed path in these discussions. The speed around the points isn't a issue to cruising. So it is just boat length and sail area/displacement.

So in the speed discussion insted of whether your crusier is a full/fin keel, spade/full rubber, internal/external ballast, lets address water line, sail area, and displacement!
Yes, not you but you'd have to acknowledge the "my boat's faster than your boat" is pretty representative of one side of the argument.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 17:38   #219
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Yes, not you but you'd have to acknowledge the "my boat's faster than your boat" is pretty representative of one side of the argument.
It always as seemed to me the the times the faster boat would even matter are fairly few as far as the "bad" conditions and distance passages that the topic normally revolves around. Given that with enough warning (like days) a 1 knot per hour speed advantage could really matter, but this assumes you made the right course choice and that was probably mostly a guess to start with.

My boat is pretty fast. It is light and has a good amount of sail. The reason it isn't faster is because of me.

But since you get caught in light winds more often than high winds the faster boat can made some good time over an older boat (why I have been considering a better choice of light wind sails). But if the winds start hitting 20+ and I have reefed down both boats now have the same power/weight.

So far as this goes none of this hull/keel/rudder crap discussion matters. What matters is how your sail handling is setup so you can reef down etc.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 17:50   #220
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Kimberton PA
Boat: Cabo Rico 38 / Bayfield 32
Posts: 573
Images: 1
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by endoftheroad View Post
My boat isn't capable till I become more experienced.
+1
__________________
Saltyhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 18:01   #221
Registered User
 
endoftheroad's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Key West
Boat: Westsail 32 and Herreshoff 28
Posts: 1,159
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Isn't it true that a heavier boat can carry more stores percentage wise to its displacement and sail better than a lighter boat with same percentage of added weight to its displacement?

Probably I don't know how to say this.

10,000 boat with 2,000 (20%) pounds stores.
20,000 boat with 4,000 (20%) pounds stores.

Isn't the 10,000 pound displacement boat going to loose a GREATER percentage of SAILING EFFIENCY carrying the same percentage of load per its displacement?

If so, then a HEAVY displacement boat is a better bluewater boat.
__________________
endoftheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 18:18   #222
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

You can play with the numbers all you what, but in the end it is just sail area and displacement/weight and whether that displacement is due to the boat or stores doesn't matter. It is like putting lipstick on a pig!

I have no idea what sailing efficiency is, but I would guess that a super light boat with a long deep fin to hold it upright, and lots of sail area is the most efficient (which is why racing boats are designed as such).

So from that I don't know how you got to your conclusion.

But I have this sense you need to win in order to believe that your Westsail is the best, so I give and you win!

PS - who is to even say what the displacement/weight number is based on for most boats? In the old days I bet none were designed for a X displacement, it was just what resulted. It has always confounded me that an old boat with large overhangs and narrow beam could be displacing more water that a boat with a plum bow and flat stern that has 2' more beam for a given overall length. With full tanks, 400# of anchor/chain, my fat ass, and guests my boat is still floating 4" from its' designed waterlin, I not too worried about the weight of ships' stores.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 18:28   #223
Registered User
 
endoftheroad's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Key West
Boat: Westsail 32 and Herreshoff 28
Posts: 1,159
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
You can play with the numbers all you what, but in the end it is just sail area and displacement/weight and whether that displacement is due to the boat or stores doesn't matter. It is like putting lipstick on a pig!

I have no idea what sailing efficiency is, but I would guess that a super light boat with a long deep fin to hold it upright, and lots of sail area is the most efficient (which is why racing boats are designed as such).

So from that I don't know how you got to your conclusion.

But I have this sense you need to win in order to believe that your Westsail is the best, so I give and you win!

PS - who is to even say what the displacement/weight number is based on for most boats? In the old days I bet none were designed for a X displacement, it was just what resulted. It has always confounded me that an old boat with large overhangs and narrow beam could be displacing more water that a boat with a plum bow and flat stern that has 2' more beam for a given overall length. With full tanks, 400# of anchor/chain, my fat ass, and guests my boat is still floating 4" from its' designed waterlin, I not too worried about the weight of ships' stores.
Don......
That's a cheapshot and wasn't fair.
My post was simply a question to undertand this thread better.
__________________
endoftheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 18:34   #224
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by endoftheroad View Post
Don......
That's a cheapshot and wasn't fair.
My post was simply a question to undertand this thread better.
Yes, I'm sorry and take it back!

think I also missread your post and will take another look.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 18:42   #225
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
Re: What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by endoftheroad View Post
Isn't it true that a heavier boat can carry more stores percentage wise to its displacement and sail better than a lighter boat with same percentage of added weight to its displacement?

Probably I don't know how to say this.

10,000 boat with 2,000 (20%) pounds stores.
20,000 boat with 4,000 (20%) pounds stores.

Isn't the 10,000 pound displacement boat going to loose a GREATER percentage of SAILING EFFIENCY carrying the same percentage of load per its displacement?

If so, then a HEAVY displacement boat is a better bluewater boat.
I don't think in your 2 boats and loads it makes a difference. Given the same starting SA/disp they both take the same hit as a power loss as a percentage.

But if this is a crusing couple, they probably take along about the same ship stores regardless. So lets say 2000# either way. If they put this on the 20,000# boat they take a smaller hit in performance.

Also the 20,000# boat is bigger to start with. We have this discussion, but far I'm concerned once out in the open as long as you can handle your sails well, bigger is always going to be better!
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Refurbing / Refitting an Older boat - Advice and Ideas David_Old_Jersey Construction, Maintenance & Refit 529 02-06-2015 18:21
What is your Favorite Boat? cruiserbill Monohull Sailboats 43 09-04-2012 20:07
What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ? simonpickard Monohull Sailboats 86 15-11-2011 14:58



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.