What Makes a Boat "Bluewater" Capable?

[sneuman]

In this month's Good Old Boat, marine surveyor and cruiser (150k miles in all types of rigs) says exactly the same thing I have frequently argued:

"In ideal conditions, a modern lightweight hull form is potentially much faster than a traditional heavy hull, but in a real seaway all bets are off. In many cases, the traditional heavy boat designed and developed to sail in real ocean conditions is superior to and safer than a modern design and more likely to deliver its crew comfortably to the next port."

[terminalcitygrl]

Post #152 and no sign of chucklet... Alas if it wasn't for trolls inspiring us to converse about the same old bluewater issue, what would we talk about?

That said, I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.

[Nessus]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Steve Dashew describes in his books how each new boat he build had a shorter keel than the previous, and was more comfortable to boot. He also quite convincingly argues that a long keeled boat doesn't necessarily track better, but is harder to steer.

He's also building 45,000# 60's with a 7 foot draft. You don't see too many 60-70 yachts with full keels anymore. It would cost a fortune.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by sneuman

In this month's Good Old Boat, marine surveyor and cruiser (150k miles in all types of rigs) says exactly the same thing I have frequently argued:

"In ideal conditions, a modern lightweight hull form is potentially much faster than a traditional heavy hull, but in a real seaway all bets are off. In many cases, the traditional heavy boat designed and developed to sail in real ocean conditions is superior to and safer than a modern design and more likely to deliver its crew comfortably to the next port."

.

So where do you draw the line, is it by year, by make, or design. Our First is now
30 years old, a fin keel and sports the name Beneteau on its sides. All of which would be.classes amount those not sought after for blue water, But the boat was built for exactlyfor that purpose, and competed in a number of world ocean races. With a good number of wins. The rigging is double the size of most any other boat.its size, weighs in at 24 K when empty and gives a very sea kindly ride, and is to say the .least, a Damn fast boat.
In many of the heavy weight circles, it would be ousted for its name alone which would be a big mistake.

[endoftheroad]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

Post #152 and no sign of chucklet... Alas if it wasn't for trolls inspiring us to converse about the same old bluewater issue, what would we talk about?

That said, I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.

My boat isn't capable till I become more experienced.

[boatman61]

A Tiki 21 circumnavigated a few years back and is a regular competiter in the 'Jester Challenge' Plymouth, UK to Newport, USA.
So as you can see.. most boats are capable if prepared, handled well and not pushed to breaking point... and the skippers not a W.O.F.T.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

.............. I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.

First, I would repeat, as said before, there is no operational definition of a "bluewater" boat. I would be very quick to claim that my Morgan OI 41' is NOT a "bluewater" boat; however, I've known them to have been sailed to Australia and back so I would suggest that they are bluewater capable,- I believe there's a general difference in these terms. I believe my vessel remains capable despite it's age because I've continued to refit shrouds and chainplates and remained attentive to maintenance and upgrades. A bluewater capable boat would be likely to complete the passage. I would think that a "bluewater" boat would do this in speed and comfort. The comfort question is difficult too. I've been somewhat uncomfortable beating to windward offshore in 30 kt winds with 10' seas at an approximate 6 second period or during a thunderstorm offshore with confused seas without a pattern, but my greatest discomforts have been in places like the Delaware Bay or the Albamarle Sound with the steep, short period, obnoxious, rattling, incessant, unnatural 5' square chop!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

That said, I too would love to know who else thinks their boats aren't bluewater capable? Heck, I'd even like to hear from folks who would admit in what conditions their boats cease to be comfortable.

F2 and a 3in swell....

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by boatman61

F2 and a 3in swell....

'or in that still hot calm when the sky blends with the sea and no horizon can be found!

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by boatman61

A Tiki 21 circumnavigated a few years back and is a regular competiter in the 'Jester Challenge' Plymouth, UK to Newport, USA.
So as you can see.. most boats are capable if prepared, handled well and not pushed to breaking point... and the skippers not a W.O.F.T.

The Jester challenge promotes the seaworthiness of small boats. To me the results apply the opposite.
Despite a well prepared boat, and generally experienced skippers, 1/3 to 1/2, some years more, retire, failing to make their destination.
It always suggests to me that these vessels were not adequate for the voyage.

Nevertheless I dip my hat to them for giving it a try

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The Jester challenge promotes the seaworthiness of small boats. To me the results apply the opposite.
Despite a well prepared boat, and generally experienced skippers, 1/3 to 1/2, some years more, retire, failing to make their destination.
It always suggests to me that these vessels were not adequate for the voyage.

Nevertheless I dip my hat to them for giving it a try

Actually its usually because of their size and speed...
its for 21-30ft boats held at an adverse time of the year for the trip... name me an ocean race where there are no drop outs through gear failure etc..
MingMing for example is a junk rigged Corribee 21.. she and her skipper have sailed to the Artic and done some serious **** in the past... he pulled out because consistant head winds slowed him down so much it was not worth continuing.. there are no set routes...
For quite a few its their 1st offshore experience... also cause for dropouts...

[noelex 77]

Headlines like this do not really inspire confidence in the cruising ability of these sized boats.

Jester Azores Challenge 2008 a huge success!
42 Starters and 28 finishers read more

A huge success

I admire the courage and skill of these sailors, but the message is passage making in this type of yacht is lottery.

Lyn and Larry Pardey show what it possible, but I think to cruise this small a boat you need exceptional skill and ability. The Jester chalange shows us that average results are poor for this sized yacht.

[endoftheroad]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Actually its usually because of their size and speed...
its for 21-30ft boats held at an adverse time of the year for the trip... name me an ocean race where there are no drop outs through gear failure etc..
MingMing for example is a junk rigged Corribee 21.. she and her skipper have sailed to the Artic and done some serious **** in the past... he pulled out because consistant head winds slowed him down so much it was not worth continuing.. there are no set routes...
For quite a few its their 1st offshore experience... also cause for dropouts...

And he broke a rib or two during a knockdown.
He's a cool dude, great youtube videos btw.

[westsail374]

Originally Posted by zeehag

there is a difference, quite large, actually, between boats popped out of a mold in low numbers and those popped out of a mold in very large quantity.
production means large quantity, mass production style.

A lot of Westsail 32s were produced, but they are tough little boats.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

.

So where do you draw the line, is it by year, by make, or design. Our First is now
30 years old, a fin keel and sports the name Beneteau on its sides. All of which would be.classes amount those not sought after for blue water, But the boat was built for exactlyfor that purpose, and competed in a number of world ocean races. With a good number of wins. The rigging is double the size of most any other boat.its size, weighs in at 24 K when empty and gives a very sea kindly ride, and is to say the .least, a Damn fast boat.
In many of the heavy weight circles, it would be ousted for its name alone which would be a big mistake.

I don't draw the line anywhere. I am simply quoting someone else's opinion. That it mirrors observation when it comes to blue water rallies is just a bonus. You see it all the time. In real world conditions speed advantages tend to even the playing field.