What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

[dennisail]

Funny thing is I often hear people saying open sterns are no good on an ocean going boat. I guess the people saying that are more worried about getting wet than the dangers of having a few tons of water sitting in their cockpit. I am glad my boat has an open transom. There is no way to drain a cockpit quicker other than to not have a cockpit at all.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sorry b. ..... and its a multihull....
The Hindu : Cork boat sail

Most cored multihulls.

[Dulls]

Got to go to windward well.
Keel configuration suitable for absorbing your mistakes.
Simple sail plan.
Good storage.
Prudent skipper.
simple gear.

[goboatingnow]

It only deals with dynamic stability, down flooding angles etc and not quality of construction. So just because you have cat A does not mean much. It just means the STIX value is 32 or above, and even one of the creators of the rule says the allowable level for A is way to low and should have been higher at 40. Some older very bluewater boats will fail the stix test just because they have an offset companion way. You can almost guarantee all smaller new cheap prod boats are made to narrowly reach the STIX required for cat A of 32. If every boat is included is it really that much of a test to live by

You have absolutly no understanding of the RCD categorisation process and the ISO standards behind it, nor the production quality reporting process.

Dave

[psk125]

Lots of opinions and much good advice here. More research might provide you more detailed answers than you can get online, despite the distraction of your Summer getting going now down in Sydney.

"Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" by the Technical Committee of the Cruising Club of America, would be a good start. "The Circumnavigator's Handbook", from Steve & Linda Dashew, is also an enjoyable read with sensible suggestions. Beth Leonard's "Voyager's Handbook" is newer, and doesn't just focus on her ideas. It takes opinions of other long-distance sailors into account as well. In "Seamanship", Robin Knox-Johnston brings up the nitty-gritty of little details that can make a big difference. Hal Roth describes his preferences for different designs and features in "After 50,000 miles".
It looks like the next time a 'buster comes in and it's too nasty to go out, you'll have something to do!

[dennisail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You have absolutly no understanding of the RCD categorisation process and the ISO standards behind it, nor the production quality reporting process.

Dave

Please enlighten me from my ignorance then, rather than just telling me I have no idea. Then maybe others and myself might learn something. Any links?

I admit I am not sure about the laws on construction and I may be wrong about that part of my post. But I still think the rest was fairly accurate. My post was mainly about the minimum stix figures used to reach cat A. The number was claimed to be much too low according to one of the founders of the stix formula (link in that post). And at the last boat show I went to all small fixed keel yachts I asked about were cat A.

[dennisail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You have absolutly no understanding of the RCD categorisation process and the ISO standards behind it, nor the production quality reporting process.

Dave

Please enlighten me from my ignorance then rather than just telling me I have no idea. Then maybe others and myself might learn something. Any links?

I admit I am not sure about the laws on construction and I may be wrong about that part of my post. But I still think the rest was fairly accurate. My post was mainly about the minimum stix figures used to reach cat A. The number was claimed to be much too low according to one of the founders of the stix formula. And at the last boat show I went all small yachts I asked about were cat A.

The point still stands that using the CE cat A rating as a measure to compare cruising boats for bluewater capability is not the best indicator since most popular new cruising boats much over 30-33 foot are almost automatically cat A. Would you sail a Catalina 309 around cape horn? Well why not its rated for it?

http://www.catalinayachts.com/yachts...id=5&link=spec

http://www.jeanneau.com/technical-sp...yssey-33i.html

http://www.usyachts.com.au/Hunter-Ya...d-cruisers.htm

http://www.dufour-yachts.com/boat-dufour-34e-p-2.html

http://www.hanseyachts.com/#/gb/325/documents.html

This Robert Perry Design would fail classification just due to its offset companion way. Therefor a Catalina 309 is more suitable for ocean going according to the CE rating.

http://au.yachtworld.com/core/listin...oat_id=2366147

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by dennisail

(...) The point still stands that using the CE cat A rating as a measure to compare cruising boats for bluewater capability is not the best indicator since most popular new cruising boats much over 30-33 foot are almost automatically cat A. Would you sail a Catalina 309 around cape horn? Well why not its rated for it? (...)

Hihi ;-)

I found this definition on the web:

"A: Ocean: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort) and wave height of 4 meter (13' ft)."

Meaning: a boat that will survive F9 and 4.1 meter waves is good for any ocean sailing?

beurocratischbullshock

I think the categories were written to the tastes of mass market boat makers so that they could sell less of a boat to more of the market. That 99.9% of the boats spend 99.9% of their dock is another matter.

You want an ocean going craft, build to Lloyd's.

B.

[dennisail]

That's pretty much my point. CE A does not stack up IMO. Force 9 means waves to 7.5m-10M anyway!



I would not like to be there in my 40 foot prod boat let alone in a 31 foot prod boat.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by dennisail

That's pretty much my point. CE A does not stack up IMO. Force 9 means waves to 7.5m-10M anyway!



I would not like to be there in my 40 foot prod boat let alone in a 31 foot prod boat.

Hell my 7 ft surf board can handle this stuff..hope my 32 ft Douglas can do the same..ha ha haaaaaaaa ole ****...DVC

[goboatingnow]

the RCD categorisation is not and was never intended to produce a " bluewater boat". It is a series of minimum standards that allow manufacturers to produce a vessel that does not require individual EU country testing. It was brought in primary as a result of British complaints about exclusion from other EU Marketplaces.

Stix is not the primarily decider as to categorisation. Boats that meet A or B or C could be classified as " bluewater " or not.

The RCD covers scantlings ,hull construction , quality control procedures , AC ,DC , stability, emissions and other basic controls. It also acts as a kind of ISO 9000 quality documentation process for the manufacturer.

But like all specs it tends to lower build processes to the lowest common denominator.

Its am indicator of minimum capability no more.

Dave

[Eleven]

A blue water boat is one that is built to repeatedly cross oceans and maintained well, and improved upon where weaknesses are found.
A blue water crew have the same design criteria and a large dose of risk acceptance.
Enjoying water sailing">blue water sailing requires another set of mental issues/attitudes.

[dennisail]

Stix is not the primarily decider as to categorisation. Boats that meet A or B or C could be classified as " bluewater " or not.

I stand corrected on the issue that stix is not the only factor. All the rest I said still applies though. At the start of the thread it was mentioned that the CE rating was a deciding factor on a boat being bluewater capable. My point is that it is not.

But like all specs it tends to lower build processes to the lowest common denominator.

That was also one of my points.

Seems you actually agree with me on the CE rating not being a good test for a bluewater boat.

[David_Old_Jersey]

"Bluewater Boat" is simply a marketing phrase. and used as shorthand for "boat someone would be happy to cross an ocean in" (and on that opinions vary ).

Can't say I would want a boat built to a marketing phrase Nor to someone else's comfort level.......no matter what the EU may have to say about it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dennisail

I stand corrected on the issue that stix is not the only factor. All the rest I said still applies though. At the start of the thread it was mentioned that the CE rating was a deciding factor on a boat being bluewater capable. My point is that it is not.

That was also one of my points.

Seems you actually agree with me on the CE rating not being a good test for a bluewater boat.

Yes I do agree with you but it's not a criticism of the RCD. The category rating has been used by marketeers and that' the trouble. a bluewater boat is very much a function of the owner not a category rating. It's a misuse of the RCD system to use it to justify things it was never intended to do. category A does not mean that anyone could take the boat through anything. It does mean the basic boat is " technically" capable ( in the right hands) of handling thoses conditions. Such boats have demonstrated they do survive such conditions, once the crew know what they are doing.

Dave