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Old 31-10-2011, 22:03   #31
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

How heavily the boat is built. Quality of workmanship will let you save weight, but for similar quality the heavier boat will be stronger, and by heavier I mean weight of hull, deck and bulkheads excluding ballast and fittings. What size is the mast?

Redundancy: Are there double lowers, is it a cutter with lots of extra stays and shrouds, are the sails triple stitched . . . ?

What is the angle of vanishing stability and what is the roll moment of inertia?

Are there backup systems for things that reasonably can be backed up? Can the electric windlass be operated manually and if so is the mechanical advantage reasonable? If the power fails can you still get water out of the tanks to drink. If the watermaker dies, do you have enough tankage to get to the next landfall with potable water?

How seakindly is the boat? In large chop is the motion OK or is it a misery for everyone aboard. Does the boat need to be tended constantly or can it look after itself hoveto?

To a certain extent the answer is dependant on the crew. Beth Leonard talks about this in her cruising manual. The first boat she owned with her husband Evans did a lot more to look after them. Their second boat, when they had more experience, too more forethought and tending in exchange for better performance.

How able is the boat able to soak abuse and damage and continue to function at least minimally?
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Old 31-10-2011, 22:06   #32
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

If a 100,000 ton freighter can sink, so can any other boat. That's not saying you don't need to prepare for an ocean crossing, quite the opposite. Just that no matter what boat you have you had better know what you are doing. And even that doesn't guarantee anything. If it were easy everyone would do it, then where would the fun be? It took the human race 10,000 years of civilization before someone had the guts to cross the ocean on purpose, that says it's not easy. If you do cross the ocean in a (relatively) small boat (<100') you will be in a group of about .0001% of all people that have ever lived. Do it alone and I don't know how many zeros you could put after the decimal, I'd say that number is still under 25,000.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:40   #33
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

As a Hanse 370 owner, I can testify that you can cross oceans with this kind of boat - with a 470 even more ! I crossed the Atlantic Ocean from France to the Caribbean and return this year, and it was an absolute pleasure.
You have to prepare the boat in solving the main drawbacks of Hanse boats (they are all alike, in different sizes) : replace all low-cost plastic blocks by oversized metal blocks, oversize the mainsheet traveller if you have one, replace the stupid Sparcraft gooseneck with the tiny central pin for a strong axis with lateral split pins, add some handrails inside, add anti-slipping stuff on the bottom of cupboards and rods behind the doors, add slatted mattresses against moisture under beds.
You have to be autonomous for several weeks with water supply : the watermaker is mandatory, it avoids full and heavy water tanks.
You have to be autonomous with energy : add redundant sources - solar panels, hydrogenerator and fuel cell are my equipment.
The navigation systems must include the AIS transponder.
You must have good satellite communication systems for a daily (or more) weather information and for distress call if needed. I have an Iridium, a tracking beacon and an EPIRB.
Most of all you must have an excellent crew and be a good captain with an anticipating mind.
This is my experience, purely personal and surely not adapted to everyone.
See you in the oceans !
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:08   #34
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Re: What Makes a Boat Blue Water ?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I see no reason at all that boat cant be sailed wherever you want to go. People go in homemade boats, Benetueau's, Catalinas, etc. Those Hanse are sweet looking boats. Some good comments above regarding sail management etc. Open transom is a plus for offshore I would think. It's all about you getting to know the boat well and learning how to manage it in a panic!
Why is it that the folks who claim the right skipper could circumnavigate in a Bathtub 36 always seem to be the ones with the boats everyone else would classify as "bluewater"?
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:39   #35
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Why is it that the folks who claim the right skipper could circumnavigate in a Bathtub 36 always seem to be the ones with the boats everyone else would classify as "bluewater"?
ROFL.....
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:42   #36
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

For me "blue water" means a vessel that with a forecast of heavy weather approaching while cruising fairly close to shore you can chose with confidence to head off shore and gain sea room. A coastal cruiser requires you to seek shelter in-land, no option to ride it out off shore... Heavy weather and the requirement to run an inlet tends to lead to trouble in the long run..
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:43   #37
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

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If a 100,000 ton freighter can sink, so can any other boat.(...)
Yes. While a cork will likely float and survive. ;-)

The bad news is that there are no cork sailing boats yet.

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Old 01-11-2011, 07:47   #38
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Yes. While a cork will likely float and survive. ;-)

The bad news is that there are no cork sailing boats yet.

b.

Sorry b. ..... and its a multihull....
The Hindu : Cork boat sail
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:48   #39
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

Jimmy Cornell says that a bluewater boat has a skeg protected rudder.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:01   #40
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

A deep long fin keel with a seakindly hull shape,full skeg rudder(oversize),with a good windvane and AP.Good windward ability,ease of shorthanding.Dry cockpit,and reliable electronics.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:42   #41
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

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Sorry b. ..... and its a multihull....
The Hindu : Cork boat sail
There's a boat that will get better with age
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Old 01-11-2011, 13:42   #42
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

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Jimmy Cornell says that a bluewater boat has a skeg protected rudder.
read: Jimmy's boat has a skeg protected rudder ;-)

Always read the small print.

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Old 01-11-2011, 14:07   #43
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Re: What makes a boat blue water?

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Wouldn't that then be a Brown Water Boat?
Ha ha ha ...
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Old 01-11-2011, 15:00   #44
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

A blue water boat is ANY boat that will be successfully sailed over an ocean.

As for CE ratings. Just about any boat that is made these days is category A (ocean). The rating is easy to achieve in the design stage in boats above say 33. You will struggle to find a new cruising boat that is not cat A. It would be a bad move for the company to not fulfill the requirements as they are not expensive or hard to achieve.

It only deals with dynamic stability, down flooding angles etc and not quality of construction. So just because you have cat A does not mean much. It just means the STIX value is 32 or above, and even one of the creators of the rule says the allowable level for A is way to low and should have been higher at 40. Some older very bluewater boats will fail the stix test just because they have an offset companion way. You can almost guarantee all smaller new cheap prod boats are made to narrowly reach the STIX required for cat A of 32. If every boat is included is it really that much of a test to live by?

I am not saying that these kind of boats are unsafe, I own one of this style (but made before the rating came in). Overall, I think this rating is highly bureaucratic and is no magic number. If you read this you will know why.

Read this Sailing boats' Stability, STIX and Old Ratios - Boat Design Forums
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Old 02-11-2011, 21:20   #45
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Re: What Makes a Boat 'Bluewater' ?

Very, very few production boats have what it takes to be "blue water ready". To be blue water ready, a sailboat needs to have an overbuilt mast, boom, and rigging. Most production boats have very marginal equipment that is poorly anchored to the vessel - a Catalina 22 comes to mind. Thirty knot gusts should not break booms or masts in half or pull stay anchors from the deck. Aside from that, most mass produced sailboats have insufficient cockpit drainage and protection from flooding below deck. Hatches are not very watertight, foredecks have marginal strength, and compartmentalized construction just doesn't exist to any significant degree. That said, if you're lucky enough weather wise - you can cover thousands of miles in just about any kind of sailboat. But given how unpredictable and dynamic open waters can be (the infamous '98 Sydney-Hobart race underscores this point), if you don't have overbuilt equipment, an overbuilt hull and deck, and a well drained cockpit - you're asking for trouble. Mother Nature can be brutal and relentless. No where is this more evident than in the open ocean. Btw, the "open stern" concept has been proven very effective in competitive ocean sailing. When sailing in heavy wind/seas, this design is far superior to a more enclosed cockpit that is prone to flooding. A quick survey of ocean going racers would reveal that this is a popular design feature - and for good reason.
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