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Old 04-11-2018, 07:18   #31
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

Among the most crazy “what boat to buy” threads ever given the use and budget. Really now, pretty much any 36’ “production” boat built in the past 20 years is more than enough. Plus you get to keep $200k
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Old 04-11-2018, 07:48   #32
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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BASED ON THE ABOVE PARAMETERS PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING:

A. http://rubiconyachts.com/yachts-for-.../#13Dimensions

B. http://rubiconyachts.com/yachts-for-...584/#13Engines

1. Between the two boats above which would you buy? Why?

2. Will both be about the same cost to maintain over 5 years?

3. Which one would be better doing the Baja Bash?

4. Which one will hold it's value better assuming you sell in 5 years if you keep both in great shape?

5. After how many more hours should one plan to replace or do a total rebuild of the engines in each?


Neither, based on parameters 6, 7, 8, and 9. Perhaps your parameters have changed?
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Old 04-11-2018, 08:03   #33
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Old 04-11-2018, 09:16   #34
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Neither, based on parameters 6, 7, 8, and 9. Perhaps your parameters have changed?
Training wheels,

Thanks for the feed back.

As stated in the parameters I like the boats shown in 6,7,8,9 of the original post.

For sure they would be the most, pure sailing fun, except when going to weather, close hauled.

The boat will be used to explore Channel Islands National Park, explore the Sea of Cortez and move the boat between La Paz, Mx and SouCal, including the bash north.

Maybe it is best to go with the type of boat mentioned in 6,7,8,9 and deal with the rough ride going to weather including truck the boat instead of doing the bash.
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:24   #35
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Among the most crazy “what boat to buy” threads ever given the use and budget. Really now, pretty much any 36’ “production” boat built in the past 20 years is more than enough. Plus you get to keep $200k
I don't like the interiors of most productions boats. Within the $300K budget and not having outrageous cost to maintain and store, the pure sailing fun is more important than $$.

I have never seen a Brink´s truck in funeral procession.

A Hylas 44 and Beneteau 42 as shown at the links, sail very well, can handle the sail north from La Paz, don't have cheap interiors like most production boats, and are an economical choice(they will depreciate less than 1-5 year old production boat and have the bgenfit of having upgrades and being well maintained over years. Althugh it looks like both will need new engines within a few years).
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:00   #36
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1
Among the most crazy “what boat to buy” threads ever given the use and budget. Really now, pretty much any 36’ “production” boat built in the past 20 years is more than enough. Plus you get to keep $200k
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I don't like the interiors of most productions boats. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's a hoot, Augi. If you're in Mexico you are rarely down below while awake. If you're sailing to the Channel Islands you don't want to be down below cuz of traffic. If you're sailing down the coast you want to be in the cockpit cuz day and night are delightful and getting warmer. If you're bashing up the coast the very last place you wanna be is down below.


Man, $200K for a "nice" interior that you like but rarely use.


Wish I had dem chops.





Care to tell us what you don't like about "prod boat interiors," since they are all so different?
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Old 04-11-2018, 13:27   #37
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Training wheels,



Thanks for the feed back.



As stated in the parameters I like the boats shown in 6,7,8,9 of the original post.



For sure they would be the most, pure sailing fun, except when going to weather, close hauled.



The boat will be used to explore Channel Islands National Park, explore the Sea of Cortez and move the boat between La Paz, Mx and SouCal, including the bash north.



Maybe it is best to go with the type of boat mentioned in 6,7,8,9 and deal with the rough ride going to weather including truck the boat instead of doing the bash.


Personally, my wife and I much prefer the ride of light, fast boats, even going to windward. Don’t discount the ride until you’ve tried it. You can always slow down and sail flatter. Plus, when you get a good weather window, you boogie! It’s really all personal preference.
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Old 04-11-2018, 13:45   #38
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

some boat broker is going to like this customer
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Old 04-11-2018, 14:34   #39
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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That's a hoot, Augi. If you're in Mexico you are rarely down below while awake. If you're sailing to the Channel Islands you don't want to be down below cuz of traffic. If you're sailing down the coast you want to be in the cockpit cuz day and night are delightful and getting warmer. If you're bashing up the coast the very last place you wanna be is down below.


Man, $200K for a "nice" interior that you like but rarely use.


Wish I had dem chops.







Care to tell us what you don't like about "prod boat interiors," since they are all so different?
Hi Stu,

Thanks for your feedback.

I agree. I will be usually only sleeping and preparing meals below. However, I live in Guatemala and whatever I buy will also serve as my condo in SouCal and wherever on the Sea of Cortez.

Some of the production boat interiors I like. What I don't like in many cases is what I consider to be cheap looking laminate on top of plywood often with sharp edges, subject to chipping, cheap interior hardware on cabinets, doors, etc. I would rather have all plastic or fiberglass or composite with some wood trim, as you can see on the Pogo's and JPK's, RM's or solid wood as on older boats in my price range. That is just my taste. Some one else may prefer the interior of most of the production boats.

The fact of the matter is a new Pogo or JPK with an interior I like does not cost much more upfront than a new typical production boat and certainly is no more expensive in terms of total cost to own over 5 years.

One of the parameters in the initial post is taking into account total cost to own which includes cost of maintenance, cost of repairs, cost of storage and cost of depreciation, in addition to upfront cost.

A Pogo or JPK are not going to depreciate or cost as much to maintain as a typical production boat built for charter companies. In terms of depreciation the 20+ year old Beneteau and Hylas center cockpit boats I proposed in an earlier post are not going to cost as much compared to a typical 1-5 year old production boat. Maintenance could easily be more or could be less for the 20+ year old Hylas or Beneteau versus 1-5 year old production yacht. That is sort of luck of the draw depending out what is about to fail while you own what you decide on among the above choices.

If you buy a new Pogo 36' for $250K and it only depreciates by $35K in 5 years and costs 1/2 to maintain as a comparable production yacht OR buy a new, comparable size production yacht for $200K but it depreciates $75K in 5 years, you come out ahead on the Pogo including the cost of having more money tied up. It gets more dramatic in favor of the Pogo when you go up to a Pogo 12.5(40') and 40' production boat even though the new Pogo 12.5 costs $350K and a new production 40' boat cost $250K. Same thing for 5 year old Pogo 12.5 and 5 year old 40' production boat unless you come across some one puking up a typical 5 year old production yacht. That is not likely to happen with a Pogo or JPK.

Another thing the volume inside and room in the cockpit of a Pogo is equal to a typical production yacht 5 feet longer because Pogo's have a more beam per ft of length than most any other mono hull.

Over 5 years taking everything into account(not just upfront cost), you certainly are not going to be worse off financially with Pogo or JPK than if you bought a comparable length production boat. The JPK's, Pogo's and RM's are comfortable enough for my use in terms of finish(others might prefer the finish of a typical production yacht built for the charter companies). The Pogo, JPK, and RM are more comfortable while sailing than a typical production boat except close hauled in a chop. Plus with a Pogo or a JPK(not sure about RM), I am going to feel safer if I get caught out in the Channels Islands in 40 knots of wind and a difficult sea state or bashing north from La Paz. That also means I can get more sailing in, assuming my seaman ship is up to snuff, because there are conditions or expected weather when I would venture out in a Pogo or JPK and not a typical production boat.

The idea of the post is get feedback on the different options up to $300K(or less), up front, for my intended use. Of course money matters. It almost always matters. I am fortunate I can afford to tie up $300K for 5 years upfront if I want, plus maintenance, repairs, depreciation and storage to pursue a hobby. In my original post I put as a parameter upfront cost of "$300K or less, including repairs and any refit". I chose $300K because that is what a fully equipped 38'-40' Pogo or JPK costs ready to sail away.

If it means tying up $50K or $100K more upfront to have significantly more fun, that is OK, especially if after 5 years I get the $50K or $100K back, less the cost of the use of the money.

As the cliché goes when my time comes, I am not going to be concerned about the things I did. I am going to be concerned about the things I did not do. As Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, apparently said on his death bed, "I should have drunk champagne". Or from a different angle when a friend of mine's father was asked by his kids about their inheritance due to their concern about their father's spending habits, his answer was, "I hope the last check bounces!"

You could say I am splitting hairs and just go buy a 5 year old, well equipped and well maintained 40 ft Beneteau for $150K and be done with it. But what are most of the discussions in these forums about? Mostly the discussions are about how to go about an expensive avocation, between people more fortunate than most

I really like the Pogo's and JPK's. My only concern is are they OK for my intended use. I know the sailing is going to be exceptionally fun except going to weather close hauled in a chop or if you have to motor for a long time directly into the wind and into a mixed up, mostly oncoming sea like bashing north from La Paz / Cabo San Lucas. I know the comfort will be just fine for my intended use in a Pogo or JPK that is 36' and above. A Pogo 30's could even work but it is on the deg of being too spartan.

I am certain that the Pogo's and JPK's are less likely to have a major failure than a typical production boat bashing north from Cabo San Lucas. But you might need all new fillings when you get back to SouCal if you did the trip in a Pogo or JPK more so than a typcial production boat.

I also like an older a bit more heavy duty vessel like the Hylas center cockpit and Beneteau center cockpit but still sails pretty well, and that also has an interior I like more than a 1-5 year typical production yacht. Two other models I would put in that category for my use would be a used Island Packet 420 or Pacific Seacraft 40, in good repair that are going to cost about the same as a comparable typical production boat but not as much fun as a Pogo or JPK

No matter what the boat is within the stated parameters it may be best off trucking it north from wherever on the Sea if Cortez to Ensenada or SouCal. Or as Stu suggested buy two 100K-150K boats, one for the Channel Islands and one for the Sea of Cortez.

It is all good!

I am going to enjoy the process and spend the next year trying out different boats simulating the conditions I expect to encounter for my intended use. Plus I am going to crew on a boat doing the Baja Bash before buying anything.

Thanks for everyone's comments!
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Old 04-11-2018, 16:11   #40
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Personally, my wife and I much prefer the ride of light, fast boats, even going to windward. Don’t discount the ride until you’ve tried it. You can always slow down and sail flatter. Plus, when you get a good weather window, you boogie! It’s really all personal preference.
Yes. I need to do a test sail on a Pogo and JPK. Better yet charter for a week. I know where I can can get on a Pogo 30, 36, or 12.5 for a week. JPK 38 I have not been able to find.

Before buying I will crew on a boat sailing north from Cabo to SouCal.
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Old 04-11-2018, 18:38   #41
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

A couple of poings, Augi:

1 You keep mentioning Beneteaus and Hylas's as being in the same quality bracket. Many would disagree with this statement.

2. The Bennie, the Hylas, the IP and the Pacific Seacraft are all production boats. The latter three are of a general better build quality by most standards. The Pogo and her brethren are production boats too... just of a very different design brief.

3. There is a really big difference in the sailing performance between these marques and the Pogo, et al. Really big. I find it odd that you can contemplate one such design substituting for the other. Both styles have their good points, but they are really different, and it goes far beyond the interior fit out.

I've only visited on a Pogo, and not sailed one. I was favorably impressed by the quality, at least from a superficial standpoint, and would love to have a sail on one, but they are pretty rare here in Oz. I'll be interested in what you decide upon.

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Old 05-11-2018, 09:50   #42
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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A couple of poings, Augi:

1 You keep mentioning Beneteaus and Hylas's as being in the same quality bracket. Many would disagree with this statement.

2. The Bennie, the Hylas, the IP and the Pacific Seacraft are all production boats. The latter three are of a general better build quality by most standards. The Pogo and her brethren are production boats too... just of a very different design brief.

3. There is a really big difference in the sailing performance between these marques and the Pogo, et al. Really big. I find it odd that you can contemplate one such design substituting for the other. Both styles have their good points, but they are really different, and it goes far beyond the interior fit out.

I've only visited on a Pogo, and not sailed one. I was favorably impressed by the quality, at least from a superficial standpoint, and would love to have a sail on one, but they are pretty rare here in Oz. I'll be interested in what you decide upon.

Jim
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the feedback.

What I am trying to do is narrow down what boats to consider based on my intended use, and get the potential boats, down to a couple or three models, over the next 12 months, if possible, charter each for a week, or at least go for a test sail.

Before buying I am going to crew on a boat doing the bash north from La Paz / Cabo since I will be moving the boat I buy between SouCal and Sea of Cortez every year.

During the next 12 months I am going to rent a fractional share of a Beneteau 40 out of Channel Islands Harbor, in Oxnard, Ca that will allow me to sail 6-8 weeks over the year contract.

In the next year I will sail for at least 5 days in the Sea of Cortez.

I think it will probably be a Pogo or JPK that I buy, but I want to look at the whole universe and chop down from there. Everyone's feedback has helped in that process including giving me a dose of reality how little I know.

As discussed regarding the Pogo and JPK, I will test them out going to weather under sail and motoring into a chop to see how bad the pounding is, and see what can be done to mitigate it while out on the water.

I am hoping the Pogo 30 ends up working for me because there are used boats available unlike the Pogo 36 and JPK 38 FC.

There are used Pogo 12.5's available at about double the price of a used Pogo 30 but that is probably more boat than I need, and harder to manage, than the above, if for example the crew is me, and if it is possible, some one even more inexperienced than me.

A Pogo 30 can even be, stored on it's own trailer, and trailered but a permit and lead car would be required to go on the highway. That means if I don't want to do the bash north from La Paz / Cabo to SouCal, I can sail to the northern end of the sea of Cortez, and haul the trailer my self. I have a quotation for a steel, galvanized trailer for the Pogo 30 for $6500. I can haul myself for no more than $1500 including all the associated costs, and have it done in one day.

I can definitely store the Pogo 30 on it's own trailer with mast up in Mexico. In SouCal I don't think that is possible so I would wet store.

There is a reasonable chance to have wind from the South in the Sea of Cortez in the late spring or early summer based on what I have read and observed watching the marine weather. That would make the sail north on the Pogo a lot of fun.

A Pogo 30 out of Martinique will be first on the list to charter for a week to the Grenadines and back. That could settle the matter.
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Old 09-11-2018, 07:51   #43
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

Have a look at 67ketch.com . Looks like a lot of boat for a good price? Just my thoughts.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:32   #44
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

Do yourself a massive favor and don't look at anything other than a Beneteau with that budget you should be able to get an oceanis 45 your wife will thank you and me if you take my advice I have much experience. Resale will be a lot easier too, for even easier resale look at shallow draught and in mast furling.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:12   #45
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Re: What is the best boat to buy?

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Do yourself a massive favor and don't look at anything other than a Beneteau with that budget you should be able to get an oceanis 45 your wife will thank you and me if you take my advice I have much experience. Resale will be a lot easier too, for even easier resale look at shallow draught and in mast furling.
Thanks for your comments.

My next step is I am chartering a Pogo 30 out Martinique in January. My wife does not sail. I am usually going to sail for no more than 1 week at a time(see my initial post).

I want to see if the Pogo 30 is comfortable enough for my needs. I know a Pogo 30, except going closed hauled into a chop will have excellent and fun performance. I know a Pogo 30 is sea worthy and will be comfortable under sail except maybe upwind, close hauled into a chop. If the Pogo 30 is not comfortable enough then I can go up to a Pogo 36 or 12.5 or JPK 38 FC.

I am renting a fractional share of a Beneteau 40 that will allow me to sail 6-8 weeks in 12 months(1 week at a time), to explore the Channel Islands National Park. So I will find out if a Benetau type boat or a wide, flat bottomed, fast, more utilitarian boat like a Pogo, JPK, or RM works better for my intended use.

I am in no rush. I am going to sail on for at least a week before buying anything. I am also going to crew on a boat doing the bash north to SouCal from Cabo San Lucas / La Paz, Mx before buying anything because I plan to move the boat seasonally, between SouCal and the Sea of Cortez.

It is borderline viable to trailer a Pogo 30 from Puerto Penasco to Ensenada to avoid the bash north.

I like the KISS aspect of the Pogo 30 if it is comfortable enough and does not pound to much going to weather in a chop.

I am a novice. Who knows after spending the next 12 months trying out different boats I may go a different direction all together, but I doubt it. I already chartered a FP Lucia 40 for a week in Croatia. It is a fine boat, but not for me. If I was living aboard I would only consider a Cat. If I had the money and I was only sailing 8 weeks a year per the parameters in my initial post I would consider a Outremer. Even then I can see my self going with a Pogo. Less complicated and having less to repair and maintain means more time sailing. Time and hassle factor are the more critical factors opposed to money.

See link below of 3 guys sailing a Pogo 30 across the Atlantic.

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