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Old 26-08-2008, 18:51   #16
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Originally Posted by FreeMason View Post
What about weights? I just don't know how much displacement and ballast really matter...or rather I should say, I still am not sure if for 44' a 26880# boat is "heavy" enough or "why wouldn't it be heavy enough"?

With an 8,000# ballast.

I'm just more concerned about heeling while reaching, or having a gust across the beam easily knocking it down because of some design more than of piloting...obviously reefing and using storm sails and such are an issue of skills, but design wise...would a 26880# boat simply be too light and thus, more in danger of that situation?
Again, this doesn't soundbite well. Let me give an example.

I know a design that is, for a 44 boat, 10,000#. Which is too heavy or too light? Well, one is a tri, so it isn't apples to apples. But the question was ‘what is seaworthy’ and either one of them could be. If we charitably append the question with “… in a monohull” you get a slightly better question but it still isn’t enough to give you a good answer. Keel shape alone affects heeling. Hull shape affects heeling. Center of Effort and Center of Gravity do too.

It truly is a complex topic.
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Old 26-08-2008, 18:55   #17
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Seaworthiness is a much larger issue. Most library systems can bring a book in from an exchange group, but even major libraries are unlikely to have a lot of sailing books, they tend to get stolen if they are ordered at all.

Among the required regarding would be Marchaj's book, and "Fastnet Force 10" another classic that analyzes why there were so many losses and casualties in that race. A generic size/shape/weight class and a run of numbers won't tell you if a particular vessel is seaworthy, much less if it can be made so.

Anything can go to sea, even a log. Does that make it seaworthy?

Use the search function, check out the MANY pre-existing threads on "bluewater" boats, and you'll get some idea of how much more complicated this is, and how much debate there is over what the answers might be.
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Old 26-08-2008, 18:56   #18
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Well I'm open to complex answers too, if anyone wants to have fun giving as detailed answer as possible it's not beyond me to read it

Narrowing it down, keel shape - should be as long as possible (right?). Hull shape...haven't heard much about that, what would you aim for? Deeper hull draught? Shallower hull draught? Sloped(?)//flat(?) etc.

Center of effort, and of gravity, ellaborate on where you'd like them to be in relation to various hull//keel designs.
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Old 26-08-2008, 19:07   #19
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Well I'm open to complex answers too, if anyone wants to have fun giving as detailed answer as possible it's not beyond me to read it
1. Pull out the credit card.
2. Order the book.
3. Read it.

Repeat step 3
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Old 26-08-2008, 19:19   #20
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It really gets frustrating to merely repeat to read a book, there's thousands of books on the subject, thanks for your suggestion, but that's not what I'm asking and in that case wouldn't it be better to have just considered your first post about a book suggestion to have been sufficient and just let others take the time and opportunity to expunge their heads of their own knowledge and experiences concerning this complex question? The keel question seems to be done to death so here goes a search for the hull question...
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Old 26-08-2008, 19:32   #21
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I think that you need to have your friends, that you said are sailors, take you sailing on a lot of different boats. The questions you ask lead me to believe that you are looking for a fast education on something that you are going to end up risking your life on.

You referenced bottom job. Is that cleaning a bottom and applying VC, or is that a blister problem. Have someone do a VC paint only job on a 50' boat and you are looking at over a $1000. If it is blisters that need to be done, and they are plentiful, is grind and apply will cost you $30-50,000 on that size of boat. Now we are talkiing serious money. You can paint the bottom yourself, at $35 a quart, or have it done. You can't haul it yourself, and a boat that size takes a specific place and lift capacity. Read that as $$$$$$

Anything that needs to be done on a boat most of the time takes more time than estimated. Labor will cost you $70-$100+ an hour. Unless you are willing to do the work yourself, the costs go high very quickly. You mentioned not worrying about a cracked toilet seat, but if it backs up for whatever reason, you will need the experience, the parts, and a clothes pin before your guests get to stop it up again. This is not the only place on a boat where **** happens!

Where are you going to go? You referenced long keel being better with a question mark. Sailing on the West Coast you will be in deep water outside the harbor in most cases. In the Chesapeke, ICW, or Caribbean you will be aground a lot with a long keel.

Go sailing and find out what you want. Try to push a 50', 27000 lb. craft away from the dock. Now imagine trying to stop it at 2 kts. let alone 6. If you find a boat in your "range" for $50K you really need to post some pictures.

Good Luck
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Old 26-08-2008, 21:11   #22
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If the 26880# boat can ably perform in that situation...then to me it seems like a reasonable purchase.
FreeMason - Pardon me if I am getting into a sensitive area. You currently have at least three threads going on your boat plans. That's fine - nothing wrong with interacting.

However it appears to me that you are asking specific questions about a specific boat in a generic way - which seems (to me) like you are fishing for the answer you want.

1 - Yes the boat is great and will be perfect in a storm
2 - No it won't be too expensive to maintain
3 - And yes it is a great purchase price

(BTW - We are all looking for this boat)

It seems you are getting a lot of advice, just be cautious that you don't have your blinders on to the answers.

Starting with a price in mind that does not match the plans in mind could leave you disappointed.

The folks around here have thousands of combined years of experience. Name a specific boat and a specific price and you will get some pretty specific answers. No one wants to see you get the wrong boat or get in over your head.
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Old 27-08-2008, 10:14   #23
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" there's thousands of books on the subject,"
Probably more like six, and I'd bet that the members here would recommend two or three of the same titles almost universally. That's not a lot of reading, considering that the reading places HOURS of detailed insight and education from each of two or three highly experienced authors, most of them highly credentialled designers at that.

If you went to any boat designer on the planet, with an unlimited wallet, and said "Build me a seaworthy boat with a kind motion and good performance, and do it from scratch" you would either find that they COULDN'T do it, or that they had simply adapted the plans for an existing boat--because the only way to know how well a design works, is to build it, sail it, revise it, and get it right in the real world. paper criteria just aren't sopisticated enough yet, and if you don't appreciate the reason for that--folks like Marchaj can show you just how complex the design process is, in their books. Working with two fluids (water and air) in three dimensions each and balancing the forces means that everything is a trade-off, every time.

The question becomes: What are you willing to trade?[g]
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Old 27-08-2008, 11:02   #24
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Probably more like six, and I'd bet that the members here would recommend two or three of the same titles almost universally... folks like Marchaj can show you just how complex the design process is, in their books. Working with two fluids (water and air) in three dimensions each and balancing the forces means that everything is a trade-off, every time... [g]

Great answer… the universe of books on ultimate seaworthiness is pretty small – and I’ve got several book-cases dedicated to various nautical subjects… Before the Fastnet race disaster of 1979, there was only modest formal attempts to reduce seaworthiness to anything quantifiable…

Accomplished long-distance voyagers such as Bernard Moitessier, the Smeetons, Chay Bligh and others had dedicated chapters on seaworthiness (going beyond mere survival) in storm conditions in their books, rounding out Adlard Cole's almost timeless piece on heavy weather sailing. But the simple fact is many blue-water designers (like most of the rest of us; thankfully…) had never experienced force 10 and above conditions, even though they were designing craft that hopefully would keep their crews safe in such weather… It fell to Marchaj and a few others to attempt to quantify what was right (and what was wrong) with the boats that were resulting from the racing rules of the day… fortunately, there are now a few more books (cheap at any price…) to help guide in the purchase of a blue-water boat, but on that subject there certainly are not thousands… or even dozens…
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Old 28-08-2008, 09:23   #25
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Hey Mason,

Dont listen to all these guys ! Thats a great boat. VERY seaworthy. Buy it, get a case of beer and head to Austrailia !!! You can learn along the way ! Books are for loosers.

We don't need no stinking instruction manual !
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