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**Pete7** · 10-10-2018, 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

If a boat can do this, it’s “bluewater” in my opinion.

I only see a couple of white sea horses in the distance what's the score with all that spray? Why no protection for the skipper? why is he steering from the leeward side? Needs to get some weight out of the bows. Is this yours?

Pete

thomm225 · 10-10-2018, 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

When we finish one of our 100 mile days, we’re not tired. After a warm indoor shower, we’re ready to do it again.

Good for you!

Looks like that is what you and your crew enjoy and want.

Working the boat hard and living hard on the boat for me is just the therapy I need. When I come back and go back to work, I'm totally refreshed and have a very good attitude

And then it's time to get back to land based exercise. Today is run (three miles hopefully), pull up, and push up day

Btw, my showers on the boat consists of two gallons of water and an old bar of soap in the cockpit

Kenomac · 10-10-2018, 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7

I only see a couple of white sea horses in the distance what's the score with all that spray? Why no protection for the skipper? why is he steering from the leeward side? Needs to get some weight out of the bows. Is this yours?

Pete

I’m enjoying Croatia today and having a pleasant discussion with thomm, not looking for an argument. Have a nice day.

sailorboy1 · 10-10-2018, 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomm225

Good for you!

Looks like that is what you and your crew enjoy and want.

Working the boat hard and living hard on the boat for me is just the therapy I need. When I come back and go back to work, I'm totally refreshed and have a very good attitude

And then it's time to get back to land based exercise. Today is run (three miles hopefully), pull up, and push up day

Btw, my showers on the boat consists of two gallons of water and an old bar of soap in the cockpit

What does this have to do with the topic?

Hardhead · 10-10-2018, 07:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardhead

In my opinion, I consider a blue-water boat to be a boat that can handle all that the sea can reasonably throw at it, assuming proper seamanship.

Almost any sailboat can cross the Atlantic in fine weather, but not all can handle 2 weeks of heavy bashing trying to do it. A blue-water boat is designed for that possibility, a non blue-water boat is not.

Those boats on the Golden race are not by your parameters bluewater boats? look what is happening to them. No boat can handle all that the sea can throw at it and I don't understand how the reasonably come on the equation.
[/QUOTE]

I think you might be overlooking the important qualifier, REASONABLY throw at it. I agree any boat/ship can be overwhelmed. All Golden Globe boats can suffer extreme conditions, and can be overwhelmed. I believe a blue-water boat is built with the design expectation that it can withstand the sustained forces of the majority of the storms, with good boat handling.

Somewhere between a Westsail 32 and a Catalina 30 is the definition of a blue-water boat in my own mind. It's only a made-up definition, but one of those boats is tougher structurally when being pounded for days on end. I don't own a blue-water boat. If I was going to circumnavigate, I'd just buy a tougher boat for my own safety. Odds are probably fair that it could be done in a Catalina 30, but the cards may not play out that way for either boat. In my opinion, the definition of blue-water has to do primarily with the strength of the construction, not dodging weather or length of waterline. Many people feel differently.

thomm225 · 10-10-2018, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

What does this have to do with the topic?

It was a different strokes for different folks thing having to do with blue water boat choice, ways to enjoy sailing/cruising, and how diverse they can be

Pretty much right on topic

Polux · 10-10-2018, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomm225

..

Are you saying a boat like Ken's above could have handled the storm that the two boats in the race got rolled in?

Yes, almost for sure. The difference in stability is huge.

But that is not my point. The point is that people overrated the stability and seaworthiness of old boats, namely full keelers in comparison with modern boats. Off course you have to look boat by boat because even if they look similar on the outside they can be very different in what regards stability.

If both are a good design and the sizes not very different the full keeler would have a bigger static stability due to being much heavier but the modern boat will have a much better dynamic stability. Nothing new here, Tabarly, with very good knowledge of both types of boats pointed that 40 years ago on one of his books:

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/847149-post2117.html

atlantical · 10-10-2018, 09:24

Well probably the most well known is Beneteau they were very good yachts at one time, but to keep in business they had to cut costs, so the quality went down hill, they are great for taking your friends down to and having drinks in a marina, but they are no use at sea. When you sail one, if you go below it all creaks, because the boat flexes so much, which is why most sailors call them Bendy Toys, the engine is impossible to work on, because its jammed into a tiny area, as the rest of the boat is maximised accommodation, on th outside they look good, but basically they are just big fiberglass baths with a big bit of steel bolted onto the bottom. If you take say a Halberg Rassy, you cant compare the two, the build quality in the Halberg is excellent, there is probably four or five times the amount of man hours gone into a Halberg as a Beneteau, and a lot more materials, also the halberg has a lead keel, cheap boats are steel keels, quality boats are lead.

Last time I crossed the Atlantic on my Southern Cross, two Beneteaus went down, Tiki Rafiki, and Blue Pearl, both due to construction failure.

thomm225 · 10-10-2018, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, almost for sure. The difference in stability is huge.

But that is not my point. The point is that people overrated the stability and seaworthiness of old boats, namely full keelers in comparison with modern boats. Off course you have to look boat by boat because even if they look similar on the outside they can be very different in what regards stability.

If both are a good design and the sizes not very different the full keeler would have a bigger static stability due to being much heavier but the modern boat will have a much better dynamic stability. Nothing new here, Tabarly, with very good knowledge of both types of boats pointed that 40 years ago on one of his books:

I wouldn't say people overrate the seaworthiness of the old full keel boats but for the price, it's a pretty good deal for a capable offshore boat

I got my info from books like Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor and various Blue Water Boat Sites

A good Old Full Keel Boat is capable of long distance offshore sailing and can be had for anywhere from $1,000 - $30,000 which is quite a bit cheaper than the $150,000- $250,000 investment on a new style offshore boat.

And btw those boats in the GGR that got rolled are still afloat. Both could probably have been jury rigged to sail back had not one of the Skipper been injured

They are not going to be as comfortable or as fast as one of the new wider, longer boats but I guess if you want comfort you can stay home

Also, many of us grew up on the old stories of people like Robin Lee Graham. and in my case, I used to hang out on our dock (my apartment complex in Florida in the 90's thru the early 2000's had a dock!) with all the old full keel cruiser guys who continually praised the capabilities of their boats while letting me know all I cared about was speed and winning races.

TeddyDiver · 10-10-2018, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

If both are a good design and the sizes not very different the full keeler would have a bigger static stability due to being much heavier but the modern boat will have a much better dynamic stability. Nothing new here, Tabarly, with very good knowledge of both types of boats pointed that 40 years ago on one of his books:

That is just ignorance and comparing apples to oranges. There's initial stability which by the way is greater on modern (wide) boats. Talking about dynamic stability the variables are weight and speed, not much to do with the age of the design or keel type. Not saying there are a lot of good properties in modern boats but BS doesn't help

Teddy

**Don C L** · 10-10-2018, 13:28

I’m not planning any big trips but one thing I like about my particular skinny old design is that it has a very nice GZ curve, which hasn’t been mentioned yet. My boat is pretty tender, being so skinny, so it relies on ballast not beam for stability. The advantage is that my particular design really does not like to be upside down, though it may SEEM to want to go there. I don’t think my GZ curve even shows any dip into negative stability. I kinda like that.

DDabs · 10-10-2018, 13:33

I work at a marina- long story short I had a guy come in asking for a "blue water" slip...

I had to laugh.

I told him maybe he should be out in the Ocean? I don't really know what classifies a "blue water" slip, let alone a "blue water" boat. People these days...