What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Thomm, now you are getting right to the point. We were talking about choices for a cruising boat, and safety was mentioned as one criteria. If beating off of a lee shore in a breeze is important, well...

And BTW, I read lots of your posts, and I think your approach to sailing and your boat are spot on. Don't take any of my comments critically.

I don't take your comments critically but thanks. I've learned a ton on this site and by sailing my old full keel boat these last 7 years.

I thought I'd sail it a year or two and know what I needed to know about it then go for a faster fin keeler (closer to the efficiency of the beach cats I raced for 15 years) but I'm still learning about it and making it work better for me

Plus I spent a lot of time around old guys that had these type boats in the 90's and I can now understand their fondness. I was a racer then and only cared about speed and winning but I still liked the old boats

One day I was headed toward Pensacola pass trapped out maybe on my Nacra 6.0 single handed at like 15 knots or so and I came up on this old guy (near my age now) with a beard and raggedy clothes. I think he was on a ketch rigged boat. His jib was luffing all over the place and his main etc wasn't trimmed to well either. I was like WTF. I was racer guy and everything had to be perfectly trimmed

So I fly by this guy and go out the pass for a nice view of the Gulf

On the way in I spot my guy again. Now he's turning south
toward Mexico maybe

He gets out the pass and turns a bit west and suddenly all his sails are damn near perfectly trimmed! i'm like Son - of -B.

That old bastard knew exactly what he was doing the whole time. Why adjust for 5 miles when you can adjust for 1000 instead.

As far as beating off a lee shore, it can be a pain. I've done it quite a bit where I used to anchor but hey, I can point within 70 to 080 degrees of the wind even in 25 knots and ocean waves coming in...…...but I have had my depth finder hit 0 ft a couple times in the process but I can still get off even though I'm usually headed away from where I need to go until I can gain some leverage and it helps if the wind lays down a bit which it usually does midmorning

[boatman61]

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...g#.W8UZBvZFzZY

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...g#.W8UbV_ZFzZY

[OldManMirage]

I have owned a Catalina 27 (2 actually), a C&C 25, a Flicka 20, a Pierson Ariel 26, and I now own a Cape Dory 28.

Of all of them, the Cape Dory 28 is the best. The Catalina's and the C&C were nimble and quick, but the CD28 is a better all around sailboat. Sure, she doesn't tack as fast, and no she won't turn on a dime, but she is much more comfortable to sail, she's stiff and seakindly, and sails just fine in light air. The key is to simply keep a clean bottom (something we all should strive for LOL). Once the wind picks up, she is still sailing when I would have called it quits in the others.

In my opinion, for the money you simply cannot beat the classics. Even though a Catalina 27 has gone around the world (with some modifications) I wouldn't try it. But if I get the chance, I will try to in my Cape Dory 28.

[bouncycastle]

A good formula I adhere to is if your planning mostly mid lattitude sailing stay small and cheap 22 ft to 24 feet..For colder regions head room.is more important so 26 feet to 29 feet keeps costs down a lot. The killer with boats is the running costs.New rigging on 33 foot boat can set you back $3000 plus easy. New mainsail.$2000 .Marina costs.per night in Spain north of $25 a night often $ 40/ a night for 33 ft boat . Smaller boats are often cheaper for all the big ticket items that often need to be replaced. For single people or couples the smaller size work well but a f you want to bring the two kids and the dog and cat then you need a bigger boat.. Mid latitude sailing go for water ballast types to keep weight down and get better speeds in the lighter winds that are more often the norm. In colder regions with stronger winds heavier bildge or mono.keels work better. A typical example will be you anchor off in bay in Greek island and there is forecast 3 days of storms . if you have a 24 foot boat you bought for $2000 and equipped with another $ $4000 you may probably choose to go ashore and leave the boat to ride out the storm on anchor . Alterntive with your 24 ft boat you can go pay the marina ~$20 a night. Your options with the ~$12,000 boat of 33 ft with ~$6000 0f equipment is probably to just bite the bullet and pay the typical marina cost of $40 a day or stay with boat for three days unable to leave boat in a storm . These are typical examples of the daily routines that deplete the cash rapidly with long distance boat crushing not including the crazy costs of engine repairs or low mpg of most engines compared to road users.Smaller boats have better track records to get places as they often tend to be able to pay the repair costs from broken equipment or unexpected marina costs because they can't anchor off for some reason. I knew one 20 foot boat crossing the North Atlantic in force 10 bare poled got rolled upside down . Because they left the main sail folded up on the boom the sail filled up with water and it took several minutes for boat to right itself . However the mast was not broken due to small size .The storm stopped and the boat continued its sailing . After that he.made the new rule take main sail off the boom in very bad weather .Small is buetiful

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatman61

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...g#.W8UZBvZFzZY

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...g#.W8UbV_ZFzZY

I'm not too keen on the Navigator, but the Offshore has some possibilities although the freestanding cat-ketch puts me off somewhat.

But for sailing performance and the money look at this: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198.../#.W8UmKvZFyUk

Hey OP, check this out too

This boat will sail like a witch, just don't put the kite up in over 25 knots or you will learn about broaching.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm not too keen on the Navigator, but the Offshore has some possibilities although the freestanding cat-ketch puts me off somewhat.

But for sailing performance and the money look at this: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198.../#.W8UmKvZFyUk

Hey OP, check this out too

This boat will sail like a witch, just don't put the kite up in over 25 knots or you will learn about broaching.

As someone who's lived aboard boats long term from 22ft to 40ft over the years I guess I fell in love with all those drawers on the Navigator..
But she'd be steady enough for the right seasons.. and comfortable.
The cat ketch rig is an easy solo rig if sailed conservatively.. we are talking long distance endurance not round the can sprints.
Nice boat for what it is the P34.. but that's a lot of wasted space in bunks that will not be used and for storage above the waterline.. not good.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatman61

As someone who's lived aboard boats long term from 22ft to 40ft over the years I guess I fell in love with all those drawers on the Navigator..
But she'd be steady enough for the right seasons.. and comfortable.
The cat ketch rig is an easy solo rig if sailed conservatively.. we are talking long distance endurance not round the can sprints.
Nice boat for what it is the P34.. but that's a lot of wasted space in bunks that will not be used and for storage above the waterline.. not good.

Ok Boatman, I got your point. And I'm not really sure I should be trying to promote a boat so much like my own (only smaller) but buying this boat then embarking on a conversion project is just what some prospective owners want.

Those extra bunks become places for storage cabinets, the empty galley becomes a place for a stove. Under the berths and aft you put in tankage. It's doable and in the end you have a capable boat which can cruise for under $20,000, the OP's price range.

And to top it off, it is a boat designed by a GENIUS designer, Doug Peterson, which is almost identical to his 'Ganbare' which made his reputation.

You go with the drawers, I go with the "sails like a witch".

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by xxuxx

Here is a personal experience on a Hunter Passage 450. We were 200 miles off Hatteras when a CG Cutter hailed us for documenting data and number of souls on board. There last words were gale force winds forecasted tonight. Around 7 Pm they hit so suddenly our hull speed hit 12 knots. We were prepared as our main was totally stored in the mast and our genoa was just a sliver just to control and stabilize the vessel. We changed course and vectored a wide downwind broad reach. Waves whipped up to easy 20’ were breaking every which way cslamming the vessel sideways. You could see the freeboard flexing. We turned on our deck lights to better prepare for the breaking waves. We survived but could never sail up the waves as the vessel could not take the pounding. IMHO the Hunter can survive a tough bluewater sail but cannot be sailed like a solid bluewater, tight vessel that can be sailed up the face of waves. It just can’t take the beating. Would I sail a 450 in bluewater passages again? Absolutely but one must sail her in a more tender manner.

We owned a Hunter 450 Passage for two years in Calfornia. There’s no way I’d feel comfortable knowingly taking that boat anywhere heading into 30+ knots of wind and waves over 15ft (5 meters). If I got caught out, that’s a different matter, we’d deal with the flexing, slamming and extreme heel angles due to the high freeboard, but I wouldn’t go out knowing ahead of time of bad weather to come. The boat is a coastal cruiser and does the job well. Eventually, my wife became scared of the boat even in 20 knots.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Ken's pictures?

Are you talking the same guy that was anchored in a protected anchorage in 20 knot winds claiming he was in 50 knots a couple years back?

Do you mean this video taken when I selected a good anchorage 150 meters from shore in a very protected anchorage; when the 90ft Swan with professional crew onboard anchored 300 feet away, using a CQR dragged and went up on the rocks 20 minutes prior to shooting the video?

BTW: I have over 225ft of chain out being held by an Ultra 40kg anchor, water depth only 5 meters.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9lyypubKVrU

[thomm225]

I'd still rather have your nice protected anchorage than the one I had in the same winds. I was on a CQR and didn't drag

If at your anchorage, I would have gone in a bit closer though and I could have with my 4' draft. I couldn't get in any closer at my anchorage because it was too shallow. Typical Chesapeake Bay stuff. (taken with old camera which didn't show wind lines etc after transfer to youtube)

Pictures are before the squall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHt7ocBZKms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okRZs6os5Eo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gcZKr25UUM

[Kenomac]

Thomm,

May I ask what your anchor videos have to do with this blue water thread? I was simply responding to your gross exaggeration of me being "the same guy that was anchored in a protected anchorage in 20 knot winds claiming he was in 50 knots a couple years back?" in order to refresh your memory.

I didn't realize the Chesapeake Bay was a "blue water" bay.

[john61ct]

Well many say being close to shore when it gets bad, can be a lot more dangerous than off shore.

To me the designed + built + maintained safety factors are what the BW label is about, not the literal location at that time

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Thomm,

May I ask what your anchor videos have to do with this blue water thread? I was simply responding to your gross exaggeration of me being "the same guy that was anchored in a protected anchorage in 20 knot winds claiming he was in 50 knots a couple years back?" in order to refresh your memory.

I didn't realize the Chesapeake Bay was a "blue water" bay.

Sure you can!

I simply thought your anchorage looked so peaceful that I couldn't understand your complaint so I thought I'd show what it actually looks like to be anchored in 35-40 knot winds or more

As far as the Chesapeake Bay and Blue Water, I'm thinking Blue Water can be a lot easier to sail in at times than the bay.

The bay has lots of obstructions and channel markers like 3 miles or more offshore, lots of shipping traffic, lots of shoals, and no room to run during a storm or squall if caught out whereas in "blue water" you usually have lots of room to maneuver and zero traffic.

[NormanMartin]

WingRyder:
My wife and I are bluewater sailors, always other people's boats. I am a pro and she joins me occasionally. And, we are looking do pretty much what you describe. Here's what we've learned.

First, good boats at very low prices are available everywhere. We live on Cape Cod and often search the Cape Cod CraigsList. Check it out and you will see what I mean. I looked in your area, Daytona, and saw a good prospect, Ericson 35-2. Those are bulletproof.

Also, boat yards everywhere have abandoned boats they want to see go away. Some of those boats are very good deals. We helped a Florida friend get a Yankee 30 for $2K. It had been abandoned to a boat yard. We restored it for him and he's enjoying it a lot. My wife and I were both surprised by how ruggedly the boat is built. Later, we found a Tartan 30 in better condition in a distress sale for $4K.

Second, from our experience restoring our Aphrodite 101 race boat we have learned to rip out and replace old electrical systems and gear. It is a lot easier than you think and not so expensive. We even removed and rebuilt our diesel. Just pick a boat that has access to wiring and mechanicals.

Finally, it has to be fun. We love to sail so we are willing to spend a bit more at the front end to get sailing sooner. We do have friends who love to fuss with their boats more than sail them and hunt for bargains rather than go sailing. What are you buying? A rebuild project or a get out and go project?

We are being delayed with our project by a few work and family matters. Nothing serious. But... hope to see you out there before too long.

Best,
Norm
Harwich

On a blog where I collect random stuff, look for the Yankee 30 refit April to August 2017
appliedsailing.blogspot.com

[oldbilbo]

Apropos post #201, I suspect the writer has been a little 'rushed' in his research.


Certainly, today's 'Jester' community ( now some decades old/young ) are a tough bunch, in tough small boats, and have the strong ethos that if one gets into trouble, one is expected to strive to get oneself back out of it, without bothering others if at all possible. That's not confined to phlegmatic Brits - consider the recent exemplary seamanship of Are Wiig and Gregor McGuckin in the GGR, and many others - but Lt/Col 'Blondie' Hasler RM, DSO, OBE was a particularly hard-bitten character from the same mould as Major 'Bill' Tilman MC. 'Blondie' led the famous WWII 'Cockleshell heroes' raid on shipping in the Gironde, then escape/evaded into Spain.

One should not take that famous quip too literally, but it does underpin the culture of fierce self-reliance.... To date, no 'Jester' entrant, in sub-30' boats, has died at sea; the same cannot be said for Single-Handed Transatlantic Races as now organised by the Royal Western Yacht Club, with their pages of rules, requirements, constraints. It was the RWYC that banned sub-30' boats from their STAR races on the grounds that they were too small and not seaworthy enough for ocean sailing. The original 'Jester' was a junk-rigged Folkboat, which competed in almost ALL the STAR and Jester events.

The curious may be interested in the many YouTube vids, and the personal views found here - https://jesterchallenge.wordpress.co...personal-view/ - and in the voyages of Roger Taylor in 'Ming-Ming'.