What Builder Makes Good Quality Full Keel Sailboats?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

You guys can fight out this relatively useless argument. All that matters to me is how she responds to me when I take the helm. A responsive and balanced boat is a beautiful thing. The only time I look down there is when something needs fixing. To compare her legs with another boat just doesn't make sense. That is not why I bought the boat.

careful Newt, soon you'll be accused of using common sense!

[DDabs]

Originally Posted by gjordan

I agree that full keels are from the dinosaur age and I admire a lot about the Sundeers. Having met the Dashews in mexico and Tahiti, I thought they were very nice people, but why did they have to make a cruising boat so ugly. I realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the Sundeer are much like the maligned full keel boats that are under rigged and have to depend on huge fuel tanks to turn in good passages. ____oops, I guess this will cause an argument. _____Grant.

Ugly? Sundeer's are so gorgeous. I love the function>form cruising sailboat. Looks like a true expedition vessel with the hard dodger.

[gjordan]

Yes I was too harsh, but then I think the America Cup boats are plug ugly, and many think they are a thing of beauty.I think the Sundeer line are superbly engineered boats that do what they were designed to do, and do it very well. Enough said _____Grant.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Chenega

I've been sailing a beautiful Morris Leigh 30 for the past 3 summers. The more I sail her the more I'm impressed. She sails well in light air and screams in winds 12 knots and up out performing much larger designs. She loves winds 20 - 30 providing easy sail reduction with the cutter sail plan, and speeds surpassing hull speed without burying the rail and upsetting the Admiral. Chenega is dry and with a following sea holds her course with fingertip control. For a crew of two extended cruising is a real joy. Hull #1, it's more than I can ask for in a 30 footer.

She is either identical or most similar with Victoria 30 built in the UK.

Small cruisers do not get much better than that, do they.

b.

[zboss]

I'm partial to Cabo Rico's... which they still build!

Although they have not built a '38 in a while they have a few boats in their lineup.

[Dulls]

we have a Freya 39 and she sails beautifully and have done miles in a sigma 36 and a westerly longbow/ longbow had a medium to long fin and the sigma a short fin. They all sail well but for crossing an ocean i would go the freya or the longbow just because they felt more solid.

[jangann]

I'd just put in a plug for a Kaiser Gale Force, if you're thinking of a full keel. There are several affordable ones on the market today, and they're under appreciated. Very heavily built, apparently sail well, and have many clever elements in their design.

Here's a lovely one in my neck of the woods:

1980 Kaiser Gale Force Cutter (Hull #20) Sail Boat For Sale -

[Pauls]

Lets give the original poster a useful tool he can use to evaluate different designs. Up to the normal displacement speed limit that most sailboats are limited to, the power to weight ratio is what determines how fast a boat will be. Meaning how fast she will sail in the ligher wind conditions we see most of the time. Power to weight is what does it in cars, motorcycles and boats. In sailboats a useful comparison is the sail area to displacement ratio, SA/D. The formula is sail area in square feet/(displacement/64)E.6667. Ie sail area divided by (displacement divided by 64) to the .6667 power.

A lot of cruising boats has SA/D in the 14 range. This is going to be a bit slow. 16 to 18 is getting more lively. 18 to 20 is performance cruiser range. Above 20 is usually dedicated raceboat.

Run the numbers. It is easy to do. This is a good yardstick. And yes, your are right, with a large rig a heavy and/or long keel boat will move very well.

[ErBrown]

Unfortunately, the only negative I can find with the Sundeer's is the price tag. They seem like incredible boat, but well outside our price range.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by esarratt

Hi!
I was just examining the forums and came across these comments about Cape George sailboats:

"...the Cape George is indeed a reasonably quick boat. There is nothing terribly special about them compared to many well built full keel boats other than they have really big rigs on them. ...

Used is essential. And I only want a full keel (just chicken honestly), but I don't want a full keel that doesn't perform well.

Thanks for the input!

Eric

Eric, the rigs of the boats are calculated having in consideration the righting moment for the type of boat. If most full Keel boats have a smallish rig is because its power (RM) is not big regarding their weight.

Regarding what some have said regarding why you want a full keel boat over a fin keel with the same characteristics I make mine the words of this British poster:

"" I am trying to work out why so many people put 'long keel' as a really desirable aspect of a blue water boat? I am going to suggest that it doesn't make much sense any more when you compare it with lots of more modern fin keeled designs - and it might be argued that fin keels actually make a lot more sense.
I am not claiming some great insight, but I have owned long keeled boats, and I have sailed across oceans in fin and long keeled boats so I suppose I have some experience and first hand knowledge. The key aspect as far as I can see is the overall shape of the hull - NOT whether the thing has a long keel or not."

What's the fascination with long keels?

I think you should be looking for a type of boat/hull/displacement/size/price, independently if it has a long keel or not. Having a long keel only tells you that it is an older design, nothing in what regards to be more or less adapted for what you want in what regards cruising, interior space and speed.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Pauls

Lets give the original poster a useful tool he can use to evaluate different designs. Up to the normal displacement speed limit that most sailboats are limited to, the power to weight ratio is what determines how fast a boat will be. Meaning how fast she will sail in the ligher wind conditions we see most of the time. Power to weight is what does it in cars, motorcycles and boats. In sailboats a useful comparison is the sail area to displacement ratio, SA/D. The formula is sail area in square feet/(displacement/64)E.6667. Ie sail area divided by (displacement divided by 64) to the .6667 power.

A lot of cruising boats has SA/D in the 14 range. This is going to be a bit slow. 16 to 18 is getting more lively. 18 to 20 is performance cruiser range. Above 20 is usually dedicated raceboat.

...

What you say regarding SA/D has to do with what I said regarding generally old full keel boats to have less power.

Today a SA/D of over 20 is quite common in main market boats, not even performance cruisers, much less dedicated race boats. For instance the Jeanneau 409 has a SA/D of 20.3 in his standard version and 23.9 on the performance version (and even on the performance venison that is not a performance cruiser).

Typically performance cruisers like the Salona 41, the Comet 41 or the Dehler 41 would have a SA/D about 28 and we are not talking about race boats but boats with a very nice cruising interior and used much more for cruising than for occasional club racing.

That is what I call a "lively" boat

[Cheechako]

All true enough, but those numbers matter mostly in light air. 24 hour trips in open ocean trade winds a Westail 42 or a J40 will both be doing hull speed.
It's a bit like driving a 400hp Camaro or a 4 cyl Honda Accord, they both go 70 mph on the way to Grandmas house. The Camaro may get you a ticket just because it's bright red, is more likely to break something, but will accellerate to 70 faster!

[Jon Neely]

Originally Posted by zeehag

if you gonna add hans christian, you may as well add others from same yards--formosa, ct, hardin, hudson...island trader--all made in same yards with same materials and workers as hans christian.
baba, panda, southern cross, westsail32,42,43..... rafiki, islander freeport, fantasia,
cabo rico....cheoy lee....
there are many to consider--
lord nelson
tayana 37, 43..
devries lynch

why you talk such lie??
formosa, ct hardin, full keels are designed for trade winds sailing and the seas that accompany them.

full keels are made for non-maneuvering situations, not coastal cruising--is why they are so deep.

This is not correct when it comes to the yard statement. Many Hans Christians where made in similar yards but of the main line of has christians they where all separate. For instance our HC33 along with all HC33 that where made pre87 where built in the Hansa yard, only a few 41/43s where built there as well. You named off a lot of Taiwanese boats, almost none of them shared the same yard. Just because the boats where built in Taiwan doesn't mean they all have the same quality. Our family sailboat is a Mason 43. Masons where built in the Ta Shing yard along with Babas and Panda and Toshibia/flying Dutchman's I Believe. When you look at the Hansa Vs the Ta Shing yard I can spot pretty quickly the quality difference from the layup of the hull to the welds in the steel. Now when you start comparing this to Formosas... sorry formosa owners but these other yards where in a different category. We have Friends the cruise a CT41, while I think they are cool and so do the owners, they could immediately tell the difference of quality when stepping on our boat. They Should, the CT was always a low cost Taiwan cruiser compared to Hans Christians. I was on a Late 70's HC38 and the quality of it shocked me (in a bad way) compared to our Hansa. There are also areas on my boat that is shake my head.... We have had non of the Stainless problems that most other Taiwan boats have. Please don't take this a snappy or mean, just trying to share some info.

Cheers,

Jon

[Pauls]

Polux,
The numbers you are quoting, from a variety of manufacturers, are based on "light boat" conditions. I suspect that "light boat" for some of these guys is really "empty boat". The poster is interested in a cruiser. He is going to be carrying a lot of gear. The only SA/D ratio that will mean anything to him is the fully loaded one.

The SA/D's I was giving refered to loaded condition. Yeah, sure, "loaded" means different things to different people. And if somebody is willing to travel really light they can have pretty high SA/Ds. But if they're carrying supplies for 6 months, several anchors, lots of tools and spares, a good tender, 300' of chain, etc etc than the ULDB SA/Ds come down quite a bit.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Pauls

Polux,
The numbers you are quoting, from a variety of manufacturers, are based on "light boat" conditions. I suspect that "light boat" for some of these guys is really "empty boat". The poster is interested in a cruiser. He is going to be carrying a lot of gear. The only SA/D ratio that will mean anything to him is the fully loaded one.

The SA/D's I was giving refered to loaded condition. Yeah, sure, "loaded" means different things to different people. And if somebody is willing to travel really light they can have pretty high SA/Ds. But if they're carrying supplies for 6 months, several anchors, lots of tools and spares, a good tender, 300' of chain, etc etc than the ULDB SA/Ds come down quite a bit.

So in wich category we place the Pogo30? because all of that stuff its a no no in the pogo, anchors , tender etc....