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Old 12-10-2018, 22:20   #1
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What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Hello

Long time lurker, first time poster. Own a 24 footer now, but dreaming of getting a bigger boat to live on and maybe cross oceans one day.

Hoping for some of you experienced salties to share you thoughts and opinions on this boat(photos). Mostly interested in the hull shape, cockpit design, deck layout.

Itís an aluminium hull of a custom design by a respected naval architect here in Australia in the 80s. I have no way of knowing what his design goals were unfortunately.

My main goal is to learn- is this an acceptable design to go offshore with? (If not, could it be with some work - eg. hard dodger, lifelines, cockpit drains?)

I will say this - I understand many people prefer full keels or at least a skeg hung rudders for offshore sailing. Personally, neither of these in it of themselves are deal breakers for me.
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Old 12-10-2018, 22:41   #2
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

First the boat is clearly built for racing. Whether or not it's suitable for offshore depends on how well it's built, interior accommodations and such.

By the way, the old idea that only full keel boats with attached or skeg hung rudders are the only boats for offshore has been disproved by quite a few, very serious sailors, even into high latitudes.
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Old 13-10-2018, 00:17   #3
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

She looks quite slippery ie fast. Hard to tell from photos (and you can't see much of the rig) but you should look at displacement/length ratio, sail area/displacement and righting curves. You may need to look up how to calculate those correctly. Then tell us what they are or compare to better-known cruising boats.

As countless others have written, there's no such thing as "not an offshore boat". There's just boats that get you there in more comfort, with less energy expended, and greater confidence. Some are happiest on a racer/cruiser d esign like this, with potential for higher speeds (and quicker arrival), at the expense of comfort when it's honking. A "faster" boat will bounce around more particularly upwind and could be miserable for you and your crew. And if she's over-canvassed, you'll find you might not get that promised speed without six of your friends sitting on the side 24/7 which I can assure you will stop them bring friends quickly! And if she goes with a tweaky rig all that performance spells hard work.

So you can definitely go offshore in this boat. But it may be quite hard work and you may need to be more circumspect than others about weather and longer passages when you can't run for cover.

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Old 13-10-2018, 01:09   #4
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Hey mate, thanks for that. You’re right, I should try to get some numbers.

Only data I really have is that it has a displacement of just under 7000kg and is 43ft long. I assume that’s from the back of the sugar scoop to the bow on deck.

It has a factional rig (7/8 probably ) , but I actually prefer that to a masthead even for cruising. Personal preference I guess. Makes the foresail easier to control.

I agree, it looks fast and modern. However... it was designed an built in 1983! To my eye it looks like, and sits in the water similar to, Adams and Radford designed boats of the late 80s and 90s, which are generally well regarded as ocean crossers (albeit fast ones!).

That said, I’m just an armchair ocean sailor so I’m very keen to hear more, or even suggestions to what people might do to the cockpit/deck/transom to make it safer at sea
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Old 13-10-2018, 04:27   #5
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Youíre missing the most important picture, which is the forefoot and the underside of the bow forward of the keel. If it is flattish or fully cylindrical itís going to pound offshore. Yeah that makes it fast but itís also hugely uncomfortable during extended voyaging.

Hull design is, among other things, a compromise between speed and comfort. Speed on passage of course has its own virtues, so choosing where you want to sit on the speed to comfort spectrum is up to the individual.

One other issue is that racing oriented designs can be much more squirrelly running off the wind, requiring more attention to helming. It can get tiring pretty quick unless you have an advanced autopilot.
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Old 13-10-2018, 04:36   #6
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Youíre missing the most important picture, which is the forefoot and the underside of the bow forward of the keel. If it is flattish or fully cylindrical itís going to pound offshore. Yeah that makes it fast but itís also hugely uncomfortable during extended voyaging.
Okay thanks for this. Iíll see if I can get the required photos. So what am I hoping to see? Sort of a V shape? Or a crease running down the centreline?
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Old 13-10-2018, 06:43   #7
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Depending on how tall you are.... I found the sloping forward deck in some boats to be restrictive on internal height, and Iím 6í tall...
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Old 13-10-2018, 07:17   #8
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What are your thoughts on this hull design?

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Originally Posted by Kduvey View Post
Okay thanks for this. Iíll see if I can get the required photos. So what am I hoping to see? Sort of a V shape? Or a crease running down the centreline?


Generally speaking. Again, itís not either or...thereís a continuum from flatish surfing forefoot all the way to a pronounced ďvĒ from the prow all the way down to the keel. A lot of fin keel ďoffshoreĒ cruising boats split the difference.

Hereís an example on a sister ship of mine. The crease continues down to the front of the keel by which point it transitions into the cylindrical shape of the rest of the hull. A perfect cylinder is basically the most efficient cross section for a hull. So this design gives up some speed in exchange for significantly better comfort and somewhat improved tracking in a seaway.

Just to be clear a lot of people are happy to make the exchange and go for speed. Thereís no right or wrong, just different goals and wants and needs.

What I might be more concerned with on the boat youíre looking at is how easily she can be short handed. Much of that is a function of gear and deck layout. But higher performance boats generally benefit from more crew (line handling, weight on the rail, etc.).

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Old 13-10-2018, 09:10   #9
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

A race boat is not suitable for water sailing">blue water sailing. You will hate it. If you want to get there faster, buy a power boat. Look for something with a fuller keel and actually designed to handle foul weather.
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Old 13-10-2018, 11:08   #10
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

We almost always owned racng sailboats when we were younger, but we usually only spent a week at a time away from our marina, and did not encounter severe weather very often. Heck, we used to spend a week on a Santana 525 at California's Channel Islands with two kids. Like camping in half of a VW Microbus. But when we decided to take off for extended cruises we went full keel. Mostly for the comfort for my decrepit three spinal fusion construction ruined body. It was a good choice for us. Once when we did the Baja Bash we noticed that all but one of the many other bashers we met along the way waiting for weather windows that had light fin keel boats were delivery crews. Some folks we met with fast mostly production boats thought nothing of having their boats shipped home if it was to windward along tough coasts. Admittedly most if not all were old like us. I guess what I am getting at is how as we aged we opted for comfort over speed. I would cruise on an ultralight if I was young. But I am not.
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Old 13-10-2018, 11:37   #11
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

No naval architect here, but do like to read to educate..would recommend "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" by the tech committee of the cruising club of America, edited by J rousmaniere. although 30 yrs since published its authors, Olin/Rod Stephens, Bill Lapworth, James McCurdy were some of the best designers in the world. content covers stability, avoiding capsize, construction, on deck & below design, spars/rigging, sails, etc. Good reading in the off season. thnks
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Old 13-10-2018, 13:38   #12
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Kduvey,

One thing to consider is that race boats use people for ballast. She will be tender. My opinion is different from some, here, in that I am not opposed to using old race boats to cruise in. Easily driven will mean that you reef early, but when the heavier boats are motoring, you will still be sailing in light airs, and that is a remarkably satisfying thing. Some friends of ours who cruised their race boat used a cut down mainsail, it was cut down to the first reef. But it made life on the boat easier. On windy days, they raced with that sail, too! down in Tassie.

However, It was very hard to fit the boat with a dodger, and I don't think they ever did. For me, for long distance cruising, you need a dodger. So, to make that all work on that alloy boat, you'll have to consider moving a lot of stuff. And your dodger will have to have penetrations for the lines to those winches. There will be times when water gets in through them.

With winches all spread out, if you're shorthanded, you will require an autopilot if you cannot reach the winches for tacking and gybing. On our old IOR one tonner, Jim shifted the primary winches and the secondaries, so that the primaries were next to the wheel, so that you could tack singlehanded. Bear in mind that two person cruising winds up being some doublehand, some consecutive singlehanding.

Another thing we learned on that boat is that EVERYthing you do to it to make is a better cruising boat adds weight. Our friends mentioned above, fabricated a lightweight sliding door for privacy in the head; and, they also put in refrigeration. They spent a whole lot of effort to keep the modifications light in weight, and the name of the thread on this forum about it began, "Am I Crazy?" If you use the CF Custom Google Search (under the Search button), I'm sure you'll find it, and you might want to read it if you're seriously considering some kind of conversion. It will never be a race boat again, but, it could serve you well, imo. Spade rudders are vulnerable.

Another issue is alloy construction and maintenance. When/if you go look at her, you really need to get a good look at the bits where dust and salt accumulate. If she's immaculate there, it is a good sign, but if the dirt and salt air have caused pitting,you may have to knock her back anyway. Who built her and how she's been looked after really do matter a lot! Don't be distracted by a lovely paint job: it's her bones you're interested in.

Ann
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Old 13-10-2018, 14:05   #13
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

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Originally Posted by Aloha_float View Post
A race boat is not suitable for blue water sailing. You will hate it. If you want to get there faster, buy a power boat. Look for something with a fuller keel and actually designed to handle foul weather.
This is exactly the sort of thing we were told when we bought our previous boat (the one Ann mentions in her post above). The first Insatiable was a retired IOR one tonner, from the early days of IOR designs (1973 design by Frans Maas).

"Completely unsuitable" they said...

When we moved off of her 17 years later (to move onto our current boat which is also unsuitable according to the full keel advocates) we had sailed her over 86,000 miles, ending up in Australia. Was she the perfect cruising boat? No, but her good points outweighed the bad by a big margin. And the "designed to handle foul weather" concept... well, we went through a number of storms and one small cyclone at sea. Didn't enjoy any of them, but survived to sail some more. That boat is still cruising here in Oz, at the ripe old age of 44.

I won't comment on your specific design question, having not seen the boat, but don't let generic condemnation like the above keep you from making a reasonable evaluation of the vessel with consideration for your intended use.

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Old 13-10-2018, 14:52   #14
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Quote: " I’ll see if I can get the required photos. "

What is really required for any of us to provide sensible answers to your original request for comments on "hull shape, cockpit design, deck layout." is a lines drawing an sail plan and an arrangements drawing. It is not likely you can get them, so what we have to say must be taken with a grain of salt unless there happens to be someone here who has sailed the boat you are contemplating or a sister ship.

However, richr in post #3 suggests you pay attention to the fundamentals, particularly the Sail Area to Displacement Ratio and the Waterline Length to Displacement Ratio. If you go here you will find those numbers for innumerable different yachts: Sailboatdata.com is the worlds largest sailboat database. so you can develop a feel for how they correlate with boats that strike your fancy.

A large number for the SA/D ratio implies ability to move in light weather, but must be accompanied by adequate reefing provisions to keep you safe in hard weather. In consequence if all you sailing is hard-weather sailing having a high SA/D ration is NOT important because a low number here implies being "permanently reefed".

A similar argument can be made in regard to the LWL/D ratio: A low number implies a "lively" boat that will be uncomfortable in hard weather, but might, in the right hands, win races. A high number implies a boat of gentler motion but one that will be far less nimble in light weather or even a downright dog.

So you pays yer money and makes yer choices. We cannot answer your queries sensibly unless we know what you intend to do with the boat AND where you intend to do it. Sailing in the Caribbean is not like sailing in Haida Gwai, and sailing in the Salish Sea is not like sailing in Bass Strait or in the Baltic. Each locale places peculiar requirements on the boat/skipper combination.

As for interior arrangements, I don't think it matters much. You learn to live with what you have.

As for the rig and deck arrangements what is appropriate, let alone what is required to be able to single-hand safely, differs widely depending on where and how you sail. I don't think it is absolutely required to lead all running rigging back to the cockpit, just like I don't think it is absolutely required to have wheel steering. For where and how I sail, a mast furling main is totally unnecessary and introduces costs and complexities that no singlehander should have to deal with unless his sailing environment is such that there is no other choice having due regard to safety. I'm not keen on roller furling headsails either due to the complexities, compromises and annoyances they confer, particularly on "modern" fin-keeled, spade-ruddered boats.

In short, no cut and dried answers can be given to the concerns you express, because a man's relationship with his boat is as singular as any relationship he may have with a person. And we do not know either you, the boat you are contemplating or the dynamic that will exist between you and that boat if you buy it.

Remember that safe cruising is not JUST a matter of choosing a boat. It is a matter of learning to be a skipper, and that encompasses learning how work in unison with the boat, respecting ITS preferences and requirements. Not for nothing are ships referred to as "she" :-)!

All the best.

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Old 13-10-2018, 15:13   #15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this hull design?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
Youíre missing the most important picture, which is the forefoot and the underside of the bow forward of the keel. If it is flattish or fully cylindrical itís going to pound offshore. Yeah that makes it fast but itís also hugely uncomfortable during extended voyaging.

Hull design is, among other things, a compromise between speed and comfort. Speed on passage of course has its own virtues, so choosing where you want to sit on the speed to comfort spectrum is up to the individual.

One other issue is that racing oriented designs can be much more squirrelly running off the wind, requiring more attention to helming. It can get tiring pretty quick unless you have an advanced autopilot.
But... OTOH... as uncomfortable as a small boat thrashing around?? Tradeoffs...
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