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Old 08-11-2008, 14:48   #16
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You've already gotten some good input, but I'll add my 2 cents worth as I've sailed both of your frontrunners.
The Westsail became a sort of "cult boat" shortly after it was introduced as it was the first truly blue-water capable cruiser affordable by "the masses", and lots of them were sold to relatively young people with a water-borne wanderlust. They soon gained the nickname "Wet-Snail" because they were anything but fast, and the flat deck and unprotected cockpit made for a very soggy ride in some conditions. They were strong and roomy, which is why so many have survived. Good off the wind, lousy to weather! Beware, however - most were factory-finished, but several bare hulls were sold and were finished out by their new owners. Some of these were great, others were woodworking abortions! You'll find them in many different configurations, probably with many modifications, too. Look at several, and be sure to sail top contenders. Price will vary greatly.
The CSY's, also, were built like little tanks. (That's one of the main reasons I bought one of their big brothers.) To my eye they are prettier than the WS, and I greatly prefer the interior layout. They tend to be a tad quicker than the WS, and are MUCH dryer, but both will tend to hobby-horse in a steep chop. Both take a good amount of breeze to geet going, too. CSY is a bit stiffer. Also, all CSY's are factory finished, so the basic layout and build quality (which is not fancy, but very rugged) is uniform. Both potentially will suffer the same weaknesses due to age: wiring, engine & transmission, standing and running rigging. Again, price will vary with condition.
Between the two I'd go with the CSY - your results may vary!
By all means, sail both before choosing which to pursue in earnest.
BTW - some of those others suggested above would also fill your needs.
Have fun with "The Great Boat Hunt"!
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Old 09-11-2008, 23:25   #17
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I've been leaning pretty heavily towards the CSY, but basically I have been wanting a somewhat comfortable offshore capable cruising boat, and for 35-50k there doesn't seem to be a HUGE choice in nice near turnkey offshore cruising boats for that price.

Just looked at some Tayana 37s..there seem to be quite a few for a decent price, and decent rep if you can avoid the large amounts of exterior teak etc.

I guess it will depend more on what is for sale in a while when I start looking more seriously.

I may pay one of the new consulting services (mahina.net or other) once I begin looking as well, haven't decided.

Thanks again for help!
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:51   #18
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Tayana 37 is a good choice if you can afford it.
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:54   #19
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Good luck with your purchase. I think you are wise to expand your list of possible boats beyond the CSY and the Westsail.
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Old 18-11-2008, 08:26   #20
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Question

CSY33 in shoal draft is still definitely the front running boat.

It is a very good price, very tough blue water boat, with a lot of room for the size.

There still seems to be very little in the category I'm looking for.

Blue water, as comfy as I can get for a blue water boat, under 50k turnkey. Found some Tayanas for under 50k but I doubt they are turnkey, but I might find a deal. I really don't like the teak decks but I'll have to see when I'm looking for real.

If anyone has any suggestions that fit this, I'd be happy to hear them What is 'better' than a CSY in these criteria?
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Old 18-11-2008, 08:51   #21
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The under $50K desire seems desirable but not often found. There is always the after you get it home issues. At least the CSY 33 is a solid enough hull that you won't be looking at hull failure but it still is a late 70's boat with all the age potential problems.

In the end it does meet some important criteria about tankage and displacement to carry a lot of crap in it. The saloon is bigger than most 45 ft boats and the raised cabin top makes it feel light and roomy./ They sit exceptionally well at anchor too. This is how you hope to spend most of your time.

They don't have a lot of waterline so there is where most of the serious issues lie. You give up some speed and ability to beat your brains out to windward and the shoal draft makes it a tad worse. Given those are things you don't really want to do I thought is was a fair trade off back when we bought our CSY 33. It's still a fair trade off today unless you can afford more money. If you have to give things up (as all boats require) maybe giving up some of the things you don't really ant is better.

Even though we traded her away 3 years ago I still think fondly of her. So if I can say that 3 years later it probably was true. Our current boat has nearly all the great thing's I liked about the CSY and some extra waterline and a few other things it does better but the main goals and ides were the same.

It's also about condition if money is your real issue. Get the best boat in the best shape you can afford and don't think you'll save on a boat needing more work. It rarely happens and takes 3 to five times more time and money to do so than expected.
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Old 18-11-2008, 09:59   #22
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Well, on the theory that you won't find a turnkey boat for 50K, I quickly browsed Yachtworld for boats from 29K to 40K, which leaves you some money for upgrades.

I would look at the boats below before finally deciding on the CSY. You'd have to upgrade the electronics on most of these, but electronics are cheap. I'd check the Texas boats for hurricane damage, but if the hulls and hull deck joints are sound, they look decent to me.

1. 1979 Allied AFT COCKPIT KETCH Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2. 1979 Tayana Mariner Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

3. 1980 Aquarius Pilot Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

4. 1977 Valiant Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

5.1972 Hallberg-Rassy - (new photos!) Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

6. 1977 Allied 32 Sea Wind MKII Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

7. 1982 Pearson Cutter Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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Old 18-11-2008, 13:58   #23
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Have had two friends with Westsails. Very comfortable boats to move around on etc. They are really more of a 35 foot boat by comparison. I was on a CSY 33 for a few minutes once. It felt like more of a "cave" inside and a little bit of a condominium design. Having said that, their reputation is great. They look to be a little finer in the bow also. For the Westsail you need a large engine. Some of them have small engines as the old sailors thinking was "the AUXLIARY engine is just to get you to the dock".
Forget going to weather on both even with the engine. If you are slogging into 4-6 foot chop, the boats stop dead and then have to get moving again. You might consider what other well built, but not "overbuilt" 35 footers are out there for the same price.... either way, you learn to use what you have!
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Old 18-11-2008, 14:12   #24
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Fuji 35 info

Found some info. These were Japenese built I believe, typical Japanese quality, before they figured out that they couldnt compete with Taiwan's labor rate.
fuji-6

This one is for sale: 1974 FUJI Alden 35 Ketch sailboat for sale in Florida

it's an older one, they didnt all have spruce masts. Not worth the asking price IMHO.

Need to check the headroom though.
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Old 18-11-2008, 15:04   #25
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We built one of those W32 bare hulls into a beautiful cruising boat. Way better boat than the stock W32, of course it cost us more money to do it. The Westsail is a 40', 20,000# boat squashed into 32'. The amount of interior room, available storage, and tankage is huge. With the water tanks below the cabin sole, all the cabin lockers are usable and easy to get at. More than enough room for a couple to live in comfortably, forever. We went nearly a year before we had to do much reprovisioning. When we finally moved off the boat, The closets in our first house wouldn't hold the stuff from the boat and we were forced to use one of the bedrooms for boat stuff. The cabinets in the kitchen wouldn't fit all the galley gear we had on board.

As far as sailing ability, they do have their trade offs. They are not 'fun' boats to sail. With their heavy displacement and long keel they are slow to react. Sort of like driving a van compared to a Ducatti. I'd much rather run around town on the Ducatti but would never consider it for making a long trip. In any case would probably cover longer distances faster in the van. Part of the 'wetsnail' reputation came from people who just didn't know how to sail the boat. The boats will not go to weather in light air and a chop. Fortunately, these are perfect conditions to motor sail with the engine barely ticking over above idle. Because of the large wetted surface, light air performance isn't spectacular but they will still sail. Once the winds get much above 5mph and/or you can crack off a few degrees, they come into their own. When the winds pipe up and swells lengthen, the W32 does just fine on all points of sail. In fact, ours would flat out fly. We averaged 118nm per day, through the water, for over 10,000 miles and two crossings of the doldrums. Our best days run was 177 nm and did 900 miles in six days coming up from Tahiti. We did that only using the engine to get out of harbors and charge the batteries. We made consistantly faster passages than any other boat within 5' of our water line length. We were often accused of using our engine when we left bigger, supposedly faster boats behind in a variety of conditions.

The W32s, especially the early boats varied quite a bit in details of construction. The early boats had a combination of 2,000 pounds of lead and the rest boiler punchings for ballast. It worked okay but there were a few boats that were built light on the ballast, possibly because they forgot the lead. Ours, #163, was a composite ballasted boat but was supposed to have an additional 1,000#s of lead. It probably had more than 3,000#s of lead as we were around 5" down on the lines when fully loaded. Later boats had precast lead that concentrated the ballast more amidships and took care of QC issues with the amount of ballast. Can't say it was a vast improvement, though, as we never had a problem outsailing other W32s no matter how they were ballasted. Around Hull #100, they changed the hull to deck joint. The later boats are way better as the early boats relied on a wood shelf clamp for the deck joint which could be prone to rot. Also, boats around our number had two different deck molds. Our deck had a bit of sag to it that lessened the headroom but made for a way better looking boat. A number of people mistook our boat for the Alajueala 38 with it's leaner lines. Be sure you go below if head room is an issue. Believe they dropped the mold used on our boat around hull 200.

We did not find the cockpit wet. The boat produced almost no spray on the windward side. Very dry sitting in the cockpit without having to dodge spray on a regular basis. We did have our windward experience staying hard on force 5 winds and 5' + seas for four days to lay the Marquesas. FWIW, averaged 125 nm per day for that passage. The only real issure with water in the cockpit was scooping water on the leeward side when driven hard on a reach. Since we never sat on the leeward side, this didn't bother us. It would be easy to fit teak cockpit seat backs if it became a concern. Personally, we really like the lounge chair ambience of the stock cockpit. Very comfortable to lie about the cockpit with boat cushions against the bulwarks.

The bulwarks are a great confidence builder and made moving about the deck a pleasure no matter how boisterous the conditions. Really miss them on my current boat.

As far as problem areas with the Westsail. The boomkin and the bowsprit are prone to rot if not maintained well. The boomkin is easy to replace, the bowsprit a bit more involved. The deck core is plywood. Check for rot if teak decks and or fittings not bedded well. We used LifeCaulk caulking, as did subsequent owners, on everything on the deck and the boat never had a problem with core rot in over 40 years. The fuel tanks and water tanks can have corrosion problems. Be sure and pull the water tanks, if they are stainless, and check the bottoms and carefully inspect the fuel tanks.

Good luck with your search, sounds like you are looking for what you need.

Aloha
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Old 18-11-2008, 21:33   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pblais View Post
....
Sorry didn't quote the whole post dont want mine to end up TOO long

Fantastic review of the CSY33. I am really liking the CSY because there seems to be a very active owners group, and every single person I have talked to who has owned one has had glowing reviews of it mostly.

That it isn't a fantastic light-wind boat or does not beat as well as other boats doesnt really bother me for the reasons you have said. For light winds, especially reaching/running, I will probably outfit with a reacher or cruising asym spinnaker. Something with a nice big sail area so keep the ole gal movin Also this probably needs a seperate post, but for these types of large downwind sails, I have hear some good things about the roller furling for them by Roll-Gen. The advertising video is convincing (arent they always?) but not a whole ton of real-life reviews. I am curious how it does if the wind springs up a bit unexpectedly and you have a big chute out there. Will it roll it up nice in a stiffer breeze?

I am leaning towards the shoal draft because I imagine I will spend much more time gunkholing around the Caribe than blue water passaging, but I DO want the ability to sail across the pond once my skills are up to the task. Seems like the shoal draft is a good compromise here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Well, on the theory that you won't find a turnkey boat for 50K, I quickly browsed Yachtworld for boats from 29K to 40K, which leaves you some money for upgrades.

I would look at the boats below before finally deciding on the CSY. You'd have to upgrade the electronics on most of these, but electronics are cheap. I'd check the Texas boats for hurricane damage, but if the hulls and hull deck joints are sound, they look decent to me.
Wicked list thanks!! Electronics usually need putting in because I've noticed they are often either outdated or taken by the owner when he moves boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Later boats had precast lead that concentrated the ballast more amidships and took care of QC issues with the amount of ballast. Can't say it was a vast improvement, though, as we never had a problem outsailing other W32s no matter how they were ballasted.
Just curious what about your boat allows you to outsail the other WS32 that you have seen? Just skill or did you do something that helped your boat be faster?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Found some info. These were Japenese built I believe, typical Japanese quality, before they figured out that they couldnt compete with Taiwan's labor rate.
fuji-6

This one is for sale: 1974 FUJI Alden 35 Ketch sailboat for sale in Florida
Nice looking boat. Only the ketch part worrying me. I don't now and probably wont when I buy have a ton of sailing experiance (2 years of large-lake sailing). Is sailing with a mizzen much more difficult? What advantages does it afford?
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Old 18-11-2008, 23:06   #27
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There isn't much of an advantage to the ketch rig on a boat as small as 35'. The main advantages of a split rig are smaller easier to handle sails, easy reduction of sail area by just dropping the main (called 'running jib and jigger'), and the ability to set a mizzen staysail. The mizzen staysail adds a whole bunch of sail square footage for light air reaching. Unfortunately, it can only be set over a very limited wind direction. Individual sails on a 35' boat aren't all that large so reduced sail size isn't really a big deal. It is nice to be able to just drop the main to reduce sail area quickly in squall, etc. buit roller furling and slab reefing make sail reduction so easy, in any case. Having said that, missed an opportunity to buy a Bristol 39 yawl that had me dreaming of sailing a split rig.

The big disadvantage of the ketch is the second mast. It's a lot of weight and windage without adding much, if any performance potential. Because of backwinding and wind induced drag, most boats will sail to weather better without the mizzen but will do it slower than a sloop. In short, on a boat under 40' and really on one under 45' or so, a ketch rig is just an affectation for appearance sake.

Our W32 definitely sailed better because we sailed the boat to its best potential. We only had 4 sails, the Main had a foot longer boom and a correspondingly longer foot on the sail, loose footed staysail that entirely filled the available area, a slightly larger jib than other the stock sail plan called for, and a reacher drifter. That covered about 95% of the wind conditions, not counting storms, however. The biggest hole in our sail inventory was an overlapping genoa for light air windward work. We didn't do any black magic sail stuff, just trimmed the sails properly and sailed the boat to the best of it's ability. A roller furling jib that could be rolled up to handle winds up to 30 knots would have been nice. Dropping the jib gave us a heavy hit in speed with the loss of the jib/staysail slot.

I believe the boat did sail better because it was heavy. It was supposed to have 3,000 lbs of lead but may have had more and had so many boiler punchings on top of the lead that the ballast intruded into the water tank space. We had to have custom, less tall, tanks made to fit under the sole. It is a definite plus for any cruising boat to sail better the heavier it gets. Any cruiser will pick up so much stuff along the way that an overweight boat is almost inevitable. That's one reason I could never see cruising in a multi. Extra weight on them not only slows them down but can make them structurally unsound/dangerous.

Aloha
Peter O.
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Old 19-11-2008, 00:51   #28
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I was on a CSY 33 for a few minutes once. It felt like more of a "cave" inside
It's funny... that is one word I would never use to describe the main cabin of a CSY 33. The fwd cabin maybe, as it only has a small port on each side. But the main cabin has 6 large rectangular ports. Two on each side and two facing forward. Most also have one in the galley facing aft to the cockpit. Then there are two large hatches overhead onto the deck. A major attraction for me was the amount of light inside and the wrap around visibility, instead of being what I call "a teak cave" like many other boats.

But we all react in different ways to things. Nice to have choices.

Re: Fuji 35 - I considered one. One advantage they have vs the CSY is a quarter berth.

I think the one advertised is asking too much. But I note it does claim all new electronics and canvas (unsure whether that also means sails in addition to the dodger). If all the wiring is recent, and all seacocks and backing plates in good condition, standing rigging no more than a few years old, all hoses fairly recent, engine overhauled, it might be worth close to asking. Might. But in this economy...?
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Old 19-11-2008, 07:17   #29
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Even with a Ketch rig an Allied Seawind II will probably outsail a Westsail. I sailed a Seawind II up in Maine and it balanced very nicely with just the mizzen and jib on a gusty day. Very easy to handle. It's also very large below with lots of storage, and it's built like a tank.

Some were built as cutters, but the ketch is cheaper. Yes the mizzen adds weight and windage, but it's a nice place to put things like radar and if you put in a few hooks it's like having a coat rack right in the cockpit.

This Tom Gillmer design is, IMHO, one of the best bargain-basement blue water boats around. I would also look at the Southern Cross 35, another Gillmer design, although it is hard to find one of these for under 50K. I've never sailed one, so I can't comment on how they handle.
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Old 19-11-2008, 07:54   #30
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Have you ever sailed a Westsail 32? I have and rather doubt your observation is correct. I'm not trashing at all the Seawind and think it is a solid boat. Westsails received some bad press initially because they were shipped to the E coast w/ west coast sail configurations.

Many have won races, most recently an Classic yacht race by an engineless Westsail. For more on how they can be improved and sailed try : WOA: Through the eyes of a racer or try: WOA: An ex owner's observations

Both experienced sailors.
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