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Old 07-01-2012, 06:05   #91
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pirate Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
This area is one of the places where the boat makes a difference. Although the W32 is a sturdy boat, it is also just 32' and that is too short imho to wander around these waters, as is being proven here.

Is this all W32 owners blaming the skip for these failures to round the cape? You have to accept the basic principles that boats can be overpowered by angry seas and that a bigger boat can take more than a smaller boat. There are simple rules of thumb that tell safe wave heights for boat length etc.

I think that this 84 yo is tougher than any of us even if he is twice our age. The ones here who have rounded the cape are few, much younger, and will agree that this guy earned our respect instead of ridicule or worse.

cheers,
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Old 07-01-2012, 14:03   #92
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

The Pardeys have done it several times. All in boats <30' LOA
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Old 07-01-2012, 14:08   #93
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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The Pardeys have done it several times. All in boats <30' LOA
Sure, it can even be done in an ulu. But if you wander around long enough, the big waves come and take or break you.

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Old 07-01-2012, 14:10   #94
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Many smaller boats have rounded the Horn and Matt Rutherford has just rounded in a 27' Albin Vega Solo Around the America&#039;s Under Sail | An audacious attempt at sailing the Northwest Passage and circumnavigating entirety of both continents, to benefit Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating

But size does help in the weather that can be encountered that far south as Nick posted.
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Old 07-01-2012, 14:28   #95
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

All things being equal, a larger boat may be slightly safer. But, then, all things aren't equal. In any case, I think the advantage of small over large is probably exaggerated somewhat, especially when it comes to survival conditions. I sailed through a typhoon in a very seaworthy 28' foot boat and was not capsized (knocked down, yes, but not capsized). You may have more ballast in total, but you also have a much larger lever to work against that.
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Old 07-01-2012, 14:35   #96
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
All things being equal, a larger boat may be slightly safer. But, then, all things aren't equal. In any case, I think the advantage of small over large is probably exaggerated somewhat, especially when it comes to survival conditions. I sailed through a typhoon in a very seaworthy 28' foot boat and was not capsized (knocked down, yes, but not capsized). You may have more total ballast in total, but you also have a much larger lever to work against that.
Rule of thumb is that a good seaworthy boat will take a breaking wave of 55% of it's LOA on the bow without disaster. Your 37" boat will handle a 20' breaking wave. My 64' boat will handle a 35' braking wave. To me, that is not insignificant.

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Old 07-01-2012, 14:39   #97
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Rule of thumb is that a good seaworthy boat will take a breaking wave of 55% of it's LOA on the bow without disaster. Your 37" boat will handle a 20' breaking wave. My 64' boat will handle a 35' braking wave. To me, that is not insignificant.

cheers,
Nick.
Yeah, I've heard that. But the 28' was not capsized in 35-40' breaking waves. Go figure.
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Old 07-01-2012, 14:51   #98
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Originally Posted by sneuman

Yeah, I've heard that. But the 28' was not capsized in 35-40' breaking waves. Go figure.
Ehm.. 55% of 28' is only 15'. That means safe to go through 15' breaking waves. When I see 40' breaking waves, I'll hide under the table and let the AP deal with it.

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Old 07-01-2012, 15:16   #99
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

I don't know if that's smart either. There's something to be said for active steering, I think -- at least if you're running, which I was. Even so, the knockdowns occurred once while I was hand steering and once while lying ahull (post dismasting).
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Old 07-01-2012, 15:49   #100
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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A W32 ain't crap but it is a dinosaur. I would walk away from anything over 20 years old if you plan to keep it for at least 10 years or so and plan to do blue water passages with it. At 30 years basically everything needs replacement. cheers, Nick.
Nick for once I disagree with you. I think the mistake would be to buy a 10 year old yacht. Original sails won't be the best and worn out, rigging needing replacement, electronics a generation old but the seller thinks they are state of art. However, a 20 or 30 year old yacht will have have had these changed possibly recently but the value of the yacht will still reflect a 30 year old yacht.

There are a number of comments about W32 not being a performance yacht. Well with a long keel you can hardly compare it to lightly built French fin keeled yacht. Also, how much is this down to the owner? keen ex dinghy racing sailors are not going to buy a W32 are they? But the sailor keen on cruising in comfort would and they are perhaps less interested in sailing with the lee rail under water all the time. Buy sails for value rather than the latest exotic material and sail concervatively.

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Old 07-01-2012, 15:54   #101
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

I don't believe in the 'force' and don't think your opinion is valid.
\
In those waters and the weather that's probable, any boat is potentially in danger. 60 footers have come to grief while smaller boats have done just fine. It's really a matter of luck and a whole lot of seamanship that gets boats through this area. The only advantage I can see to a larger boat is they would probably have more crew. Having done a bit of single handing and handled an incident or two, it's just not easy doing it single handed. For some reason can't be at the foredeck handling a broken pole and pulling on the foreguy from the cockpit at the same time. They'd stand more of a chance of having someone at the helm and being able to bear off and maybe keep from being rolled. Of course the helmsman would have to make an instantaneous correct decision and carry it out in the few seconds of warning that they'd have. Of course, that's even if anything done by the helmsman would have made a difference. Beryl Smeeton wasn't able to keep Tzu Hang from pitchpoling and she had thousands upon thousands of ocean miles under her keel.

I'm not blaming the skipper in this case. Abandoning the boat was probably the best decision if he wanted some assurance of turning 85. It sounds like the mast had to come down to effect a jury rig. That alone would be a danger frought undertaking in those seas, remember they were 10-15' which is bigger than most sailors will ever see. Once the mast was out of the way, he would have had to erect a jury rig mast either out of the boom or spinnaker pole. Once again not an easy task in a seaway for a single hander. Once that was done, he had to sail close to a thousand miles very very slowly with the threat of constant powerful storms. In short, he was almost guaranteed to see several major storms in the long time it would take to sail to Chile. It's not a position I'd want to be in. But then I wouldn't even think of going around Cape Horn no matter what the boat and that includes an aircraft carrier.

Moitessier's 'Joshua' was just an 8' longer version of the Westsail 32.
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Old 07-01-2012, 15:57   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7

Nick for once I disagree with you. I think the mistake would be to buy a 10 year old yacht. Original sails won't be the best and worn out, rigging needing replacement, electronics a generation old but the seller thinks they are state of art. However, a 20 or 30 year old yacht will have have had these changed possibly recently but the value of the yacht will still reflect a 30 year old yacht.
Yes that's true but I should have been more detailed (trying to limit that a bit though.. too many long posts..).

What I mean about needing replacement is stuff like chainplates, keelbolts, rudder bearings and shaft, engine, prop and shaft, mast, boom, all wiring & plumbing, most if not all fasteners etc. etc.

Of course you can find the well kept boat that has replaced mst of that already but often the very expensive parts that need replacing are still original.

cheers,
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Old 07-01-2012, 16:02   #103
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I don't believe in the 'force' and don't think your opinion is valid.
\
In those waters and the weather that's probable, any boat is potentially in danger. 60 footers have come to grief while smaller boats have done just fine. It's really a matter of luck and a whole lot of seamanship that gets boats through this area. The only advantage I can see to a larger boat is they would probably have more crew.
The force is not in this one

It sure is a viewpoint to state that smaller is safer; it's just not supported by any nautical architect, that's all.

cheers,
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Old 07-01-2012, 16:29   #104
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pirate Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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The force is not in this one

It sure is a viewpoint to state that smaller is safer; it's just not supported by any nautical architect, that's all.

cheers,
Nick.
Maybe not supported but it happens...
In December '08 I crossed the Biscay in an old Hurley 22... conditions were atrocious for days with a steady WNW gale 9 which built up sea's recorded at 10-12 metre's all along the Galician Coast..
my last 2 days before I made port it went to F11... during those 2 days 3 large fishing vessels went down within 50 miles of me... they were in the 60ft range and are powerful seaboats...
Two of the dead were from the port of Viviero where I pulled in..
I've also seen one of these biggies nearly capsize crossing the bar at Figuiera da Foz following me in on a heavy swell...
Yes I got smacked around a bit but when it gets that big one really is a bit like a cork... down side was all the water jetting through the hatch when odd waves broke over... bloody soaked everything...
I've had rougher rides in 5-6 metre sea's...
But then... I could just be a lucky sod...
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Old 07-01-2012, 17:29   #105
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

I can vouch for 30 year old boats being lemons at times. My boat was 29 when I bought her, and I hired a surveyor to have a look. The survey came back as having very little wrong, mostly things that could be put off until later. So I put in an offer at $5k less than asking and got her.

In hind sight, the surveyor was an idiot who writes a good story. Every thing on that boat with the exception of the DF finder is ancient junk. Most of it doesn't work, and pretty much what I ended up with is a rusting hull that will need to be taken down to bare steel and rebuilt. Both furling sets had to be replaced the first year, the fore sails are ok but the mainsail was totally UV rotted (external foil on the mast) because the owner never put a sun strip on it. The engine worked fine but then blew the rear oil seal, ALL the electronics are junk, the batteries were dead the next summer. And so on.

I'm not here to bitch about it, but just to advise that sometimes even with a survey you can end up with a lemon on a older boat. Sometimes the previous owners were the turnkey type, who did little or no maintenance on the boat. Every thing is there but is worn out, or antique. I guess the only thing to be said is buyer beware, and check everything you can before you plunk down that cash. It may save you some grief down the line.
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