Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-01-2012, 04:28   #181
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,035
[QUOTE="s/v Jedi"]Well not just aircraft carrier of course. Why such exaggeration? We do an easy 8 knots upwind at a 50 degree true windangle. That is close to 200 mile days. At 40 knot wind speeds we need to go down to 7 knots boatspeed for comfort. Pretty sure I do the trip in half the time. Motoring I do it in 4 days.


i am sure this is the case if you say so! Full disclosure you should tell us the waterline length of your very nice (big) boat for comparison....
__________________

__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 04:31   #182
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,035
Sorry, somehow my reply got shaded in with Nick's post....


i am sure this is the case if you say so! Full disclosure you should tell us the waterline length of your very nice (bigger) boat for comparison....

Mike
__________________

__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 06:34   #183
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Sorry, somehow my reply got shaded in with Nick's post....


i am sure this is the case if you say so! Full disclosure you should tell us the waterline length of your very nice (bigger) boat for comparison....
My waterline is 64' and my hull speed is 12 knots. Much less than an aircraft carrier !!

EDIT: I also think that a 50 footer sailed by somebody with the same enthusiasm as the guy on the W32 can do it in 6 days. In other words: I don't think those 12 days to sail 800 miles upwind is anything special. The conditions in which it was done were not "survival-grade" where the sturdy qualities of the W32 were needed to make it happen. These tough upwind trips are everywhere and done by all kinds of boats incl. the Bavaria's etc. without much mishap. Most don't even write about it because it is not so special. I have been on the thorny path and saw 20' boats do it too and all arrived in Paradise

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 08:38   #184
GWB
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brookings, Oregon
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 296
Images: 1
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

This is a very good letter written a few years ago by a Westsail owner. Please take the time to read an explanation about waterline lengths and and why they are not all created equal.
Nick, I think you are either being obtuse or are a troll.

From latitude 38:
Latitude 38 Letters - May 2004

Quote:
NOT ALL 30-FT WATERLINES ARE CREATED EQUAL

I made an error in challenging Max Ebb and Lee Helm. [See the Letter entitled Prismatic Coefficients and Hull Speeds in the February issue.] It was my honest belief that they would accept the challenge and attempt to help explain why some boat performance numbers do not seem to fit the proverbial profile. Very few people have the ability, as in, intellect, education, and experience, to comprehend and challenge conventional wisdom. Max and Lee have that ability. In a misplaced attempt at humor, I tried to goad them into tackling a different explanation for boat performance, as it applies to some boats. No disrespect was intended.

With that said, once again Lee Helm has made some wrong and misleading statements concerning my favorite boat, the Westsail 32, by my point of view. (Please note - and this is important - my point of view is from that of the cruising sailboat while cruising). Lee stated, "So even if you have the right prismatic for the top end of hull speed (as in, like running with the trades) multiply by the weight of your crabcrusher and you're still slow compared to a lighter boat, even one with a hull shape optimized for the slower speeds of upwind sailing."

This is a false statement if applied to the smaller sizes of voyaging sailboats in the real world of cruising. Please note just one of many examples possible. I refer to the September issue of Latitude, page 161. This is data from the 2003 Puddle Jump. There were two Westsail 32s listed in the 28 boats. They were the smallest of the fleet. The average length of all boats in the fleets except for the Westsail 32s was 45.7 feet. The average crossing time was 23 days. One of the Westsails, singlehander Bill Andrew's Quest, crossed in 22 days. The other did it in 28 days. What does this prove? Nothing. It is just an example of the Westsail crossing an ocean faster than many other more modem and lighter and longer boats.

Lee has asked me, "Now, where are all those more modern 32-ft boats that the Westsail is supposed to be able to beat?" One answer is, look at the boats on the list of 2003 Puddle Jumpers. Notice the boats represented: Newport, Pacific Seacraft, Kelly-Peterson, Cal, Caliber, C&C, Islander, Gulfstar, and so forth. How many examples does she need? The list is long.
In order to make a point, Lee stated the Westsail 32 rating was the "same as a Ranger 23," and that "PHRF does a pretty good job" in the ratings. Max suggested on page 168 of the September issue that "peculiarities of the handicapping system" are one explanation for the Westsail's Pacific Cup victory. Well what is it? Is PHRF "pretty good" or is it "peculiar"? My point of view is that the PHRF rating is embarrassing, erroneous, and another example of the numbers not fitting.
It really is necessary to end this numbers game. Lee is right that there is no reason to start a urinary Olympiad over these things. The Westsail 32 deserves more respect than the designers want to give it though, and I am defending what I know to be one of the best and potentially fastest small cruising boats ever put into production.

My final comment is this: In a publication with a deservedly large readership, Lee said I was "BZZT wrong" about my assessment of prismatic coefficients and how they affect the theoretical hull speed. She misinterpreted what I was saying. What I was trying to say is this: The P.C. can reflect on the effectiveness of the waterline length. Not all 30-ft waterlines are created equal. This quality affects the wavemaking ability of the boat, whereby two different boats will make two different waves and therefore go two different speeds. This is what I was saying when I simply shortened the explanation to "theoretical hull speed." In the context that I was inferring, the statement was correct.

David King
Saraband, Westsail 32
Portland, Oregon
__________________
GWB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 09:13   #185
Registered User
 
Target9000's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans LA
Boat: 74 Westsail 32
Posts: 1,379
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

HAHAHA, I love that Lee Helm called the W32 a "crabcrusher". That would be a great name for a W32.
__________________
Let your heart tell you where to go, but let your brain tell you how to get there.

Sundowner Sails Again
Target9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 12:09   #186
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Lee Helm and Max Ebb.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 12:29   #187
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWB
Nick, I think you are either being obtuse or are a troll.
oh, we're now at insulting phase. Well, go ahead and have your fun. Your posts have become completely incoherant so it doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 12:59   #188
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chehalis WA
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 11
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Troll might not be too far off.........
There must be some trolling going on to get over 4,000 posts!

I wonder if there is any correlation between number of posts on either side of the issue? In looking back over the posts the Westsail camp seems to not spend nearly as much time posting on the net!

Come on Westsailors get with the program so we can have more credibility on here.......

It is interesting how a thread about the poor preforming Westsail can have 8164 views isn't it!

Sorta sounds like stirring the pot for the sake of numbers, could it have anything to do with advertising revenue?

I would like to think this will be my last post here but something tells me it won't!
__________________
Tinman 13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 12:59   #189
GWB
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brookings, Oregon
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 296
Images: 1
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
oh, we're now at insulting phase. Well, go ahead and have your fun. Your posts have become completely incoherant so it doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

cheers,
Nick.
Nick, I should know better than to respond. How on earth do you consider it a fair comparison when your boat has a waterline of 64' ?
__________________
GWB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 13:06   #190
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWB

Nick, I should know better than to respond. How on earth do you consider it a fair comparison when your boat has a waterline of 64' ?
Who brought up the aircraft carrier?

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 13:13   #191
GWB
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brookings, Oregon
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 296
Images: 1
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Who brought up the aircraft carrier?

cheers,
Nick.
I Wasn't calling your boat an aircraft carrier! honest!
__________________
GWB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 13:30   #192
Registered User
 
UnlikelyVoyager's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Huntington Station, NY
Boat: Tom Gilmer designed "Blue Moon"
Posts: 156
Send a message via AIM to UnlikelyVoyager
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

One funny thing about Westsails, every thread that starts with the innocent question, 'what do you think about the Westsail 32?' end in an argument. It's amazing that this boat can still stir such passion. That alone is a testament to it's enduring importance to the sport.
__________________

Check out my blog: UnlikelyBoatBuilder.com
UnlikelyVoyager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 13:32   #193
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWB

I Wasn't calling your boat an aircraft carrier! honest!
You brought it up. You should also read my post a bit better and might find that I also compared with a 32 footer. It might even get clear that I was quiet favorable of the W32 in that post and in fact only mentioned my boat in relation to the aircraft carrier you brought up as the only thing that would beat a W32. Yet you turn and twist my words in order to find ground to insult me. Who is the troll? Often the one who starts calling others troll.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 13:43   #194
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Reading about the Westsnail and racing on the same thread makes me think of old farts.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 13:44   #195
GWB
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brookings, Oregon
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 296
Images: 1
Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You brought it up. You should also read my post a bit better and might find that I also compared with a 32 footer. It might even get clear that I was quiet favorable of the W32 in that post and in fact only mentioned my boat in relation to the aircraft carrier you brought up as the only thing that would beat a W32. Yet you turn and twist my words in order to find ground to insult me. Who is the troll? Often the one who starts calling others troll.

cheers,
Nick.
Nick.
Where did I say that an aircraft carrier was the only boat that could beat a Westsail? I think you must have entirely missed the point.
Please go back and re-read my postings. You will find that one of the points I was trying to make, was that a lot of people say the Westsail is slow because it cant beat a bigger, longer, newer, more better, super duper, wizbang, ultra cool, more scientific, more modern, faster looking, more expensive, scoobie dowow, boat.

Well of course not.
__________________

__________________
GWB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Samson 32 Westsail 32 knottygurl Monohull Sailboats 11 21-04-2013 19:05
OpenGL for OpenCPN bdbcat OpenCPN 72 15-11-2011 01:17
Valiant 32 Liveaboard / Cruiser - Thoughts ? MontanaSailor Monohull Sailboats 26 24-10-2011 17:26
Designer and Builder Opinions Needed Sailcat Monohull Sailboats 17 21-09-2011 10:37
For Sale: Westsail 32 - 'Jenny Leigh' blahman Classifieds Archive 1 08-06-2011 10:42



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.