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Old 10-01-2012, 10:14   #166
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Navigation, strategy, and a bit of luck.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:26   #167
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
With a handicap as your westsail has, and I'm not compairing it to mine in any way but you can be as slow as Molasses and still win races...
For you to say a Westsail wins races is crazy........
I'm not a racer, but my understanding of rating systems like PHRF is to allow different boat to fairly race against each other. The handicap theoretically zeros the benefits or disadvantages of boat design, and theoretically leaves only sailing skill and luck. So "slow as molasses" would only win if that was best velocity the W32 could make.

As to answering the OP, I have no direct experience with any of your listed boats, although the designer of my Rafiki 37 also designed the True North 34. For our needs, the Rafiki is extremely well thought out, well designed, and built. I have the actual blueprints for the boat, and can attest to the quality and focus on redundancy, strength and functionality.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:41   #168
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

I'm not making a comment about the W32 specifically, but I am impressed year after year by the results of the cruising class of the Carib 1500. While not exactly a race, it has the advantage of being a real world scenario.

First, while outsized multihull sometimes (though not always) takes line honors, the pith of the multihull fleet usually finishes middle of the pack.

A long waterline fin keel mono often wins line honors, but it's usually followed by a substantial clutch of all types, including plenty of fullish keel, heavy displacement boats.

My conclusion is this:

While multis and lighter displacement monos are undoubtedly faster when fully crewed and aggressively sailed on ideal points of sail, these same boats, sailed in real world conditions with a mom-and-pop crew are naturally dialed down to the point where their performance advantages are significantly diminished.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:51   #169
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

My reality, as I add input to this thread, comes from having sailed Westsail 32’s over 60,000nm. I have delivered 8 of them. The OP was looking for opinions. (He has already purchased a boat) My reality is affirmed by having sailed an additional 100,000+nm on over 140 other boats. I apologize for even mentioning “Racing” when this is the “Cruisers forum”, but it is the speed of the Westsail 32 that is most in question and Real, concrete, data is the only thing that seems to apply sometimes.
I am repeating information that I have already stated, in most cases, on other forums. Again, I apologize.
The PHRF is frequently used as a reference to boat speed. A Racer/Cruiser, or Performance/Cruiser, will be rated in its unladened condition. The W-32 is usually slower than other 32’ boats while running around the buoys in smooth water. When those same boats are ladened, for the long haul, or for living aboard, or for sustained long term safe, cruising, they are all much slower. The W-32’s speed has changed very little and will now, in fact, be faster than the others. The W-32 was designed and built to be a long distance cruiser, not a racer. It does its designed work well. The others have fallen short on the race track to the racers and on the long haul, to the cruisers.

Thanks to GWB for posting a link to some long distance race results.
I can think of no other industry where the saying “The triumph of Marketing over technology” is more appropriate. The new designs out there from Hunter, Beneteau, Catalina, etc. etc. in the 32’ size, fall into the very same category as the designs of old. If they are ladened, they are slow. To be fair, all of the other boats have some very worthwhile features to consider when buying a boat.

Concerning some remarks: By denverdOn; “They are slower than 80% of the boats on the market with the same LWL”. That is a false statement in the cruising reality.
By s/v Jedi; (concerning the HC 33) “They are more responsive and a bit quicker”. In one of the very few times the 2 boats were raced against each other the W-32 beat one HC 33 to Hawaii by 1 day 20 hours and the other by 2 days. That is approximately a one knot difference over the 2100 route.
The more modern design, again, made no difference. The HC 33’s are a good choice for cruising though.
To Randyonr3: Good luck on your prep for the SHTP. You have a lot to learn.
By Target 9000: That was a very accurate assessment, in my opinion. Thank you.
By GWB, s/vHannabel, cburger, Casual, and others: Thanks for all the support.
To MANY of YOU: Cut out the name calling. I work and sail on boats for a living full time. I fix boats because they are broken. I am very capable of coming up with some pretty good names for your boat too.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:53   #170
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I'm not a racer, but my understanding of rating systems like PHRF is to allow different boat to fairly race against each other. The handicap theoretically zeros the benefits or disadvantages of boat design, and theoretically leaves only sailing skill and luck. So "slow as molasses" would only win if that was best velocity the W32 could make.

As to answering the OP, I have no direct experience with any of your listed boats, although the designer of my Rafiki 37 also designed the True North 34. For our needs, the Rafiki is extremely well thought out, well designed, and built. I have the actual blueprints for the boat, and can attest to the quality and focus on redundancy, strength and functionality.
You are right Mike, that is basically how it works.... although when I was racing we always used to say that you "make your own luck".
What Randy fails to see because of his myopic view of sailboats is that even his boat is slow when held against a bigger more specifically designed boat. He wants to sneer at the Westsail but he is in the same position. Funny isn't it?
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:38   #171
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Originally Posted by GWB View Post
You are right Mike, that is basically how it works.... although when I was racing we always used to say that you "make your own luck".
What Randy fails to see because of his myopic view of sailboats is that even his boat is slow when held against a bigger more specifically designed boat. He wants to sneer at the Westsail but he is in the same position. Funny isn't it?
it is funny, and the fact is, you can put a mast and a rudder on a shipping container and with the right numbers, win races, just putting it in prospective in myopic point of view..... have fun with your 32....
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Old 10-01-2012, 17:24   #172
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I like the W32 as a cruising boat. The references to races and results of one passage race in particular doesn't really do justice to the handicapping system used for the reasons cited in a few posts. The handicapping systems work in a "set" of hypothetical condtions. Those conditions are never quite rerality.

Regatta racing that includes a series of races including windward-leward and passages is more "fair" in finding the "fastest" boat and crew. A single passage race can involve luck, better planning, better sailing or a combination of these factors plus others. Even in short passages of 25 miles the high handicappers are often sailing in completely different conditions by the mid-point than the low handicappers. I have been in many races where conditions are weak, the high handicappers finish in building conditions and low handicappers finish in stronger conditions and wax the fleet. Unfortunately the opposite is also often true.

8 races over a couple of weekends usually sorts the wheat from the chaff.

A W32 as a couples cruising boat, thumbs up. A W32 as a racing boat or fast passage maker, I think not.
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Old 10-01-2012, 18:12   #173
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

I would like to kick this dead horse one more time...........

1000 miles to windward - a short story - SailNet Community


Just don't confuse me with facts.
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Old 10-01-2012, 18:45   #174
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Quote:
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I would like to kick this dead horse one more time...........

1000 miles to windward - a short story - SailNet Community

Just don't confuse me with facts.
I hate getting on the side of an argument I dont want to be on but...

I love the W32 and this was a very cool trip but...

- the rhumb line from cabo is like 750 miles
- the guy made 1200 miles in 12 days in strong conditions - Yay!
- but the guy says he was sailing something like 60* to the wind

Someone can do the trig but he sailed 450 exta miles to get to San Diego. If the boat sailed even 15* higher (45* to the wind) many many miles would be cut out and maybe days. Also look at the plot, he motored the last 12 hours clearly much higher than the boat would point under sail alone. Faced with tacking away for many miles to make San Diego and motoring he did what I would have done, he motored. Just looking at the plot ai would guess 1 1/2 days of sailing (150 miles?) to replace the 12 hours of motoring (60 miles?).

The W32 is a great boat. But beating to windward on this course in these conditions there are a ton of 32 foot boats that would beat that time.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:24   #175
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

Maybe there are 32' foot cruising boats that would beat that time, but so what? None of us W32 owners are touting our boats as racing machines, just very capable cruising boats that offer more than some people would have others believe. As for these "tons of boats that would beat that time" have you taken into consideration that this boat is loaded heavy for cruising and it wasn't a race? Read the story again, the last bit that was done under power was because the wind died after a gale....

Why bother with your comment? I'm sure that an aircraft carrier would make better time to San Diego while motoring "the rhumb line" but that isn't what this story is about.

This trip is in the books. If you are going to bring the hypothetical "tons of 32' boats would beat that time" argument then don't bother
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:45   #176
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Quote:
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Maybe there are 32' foot cruising boats that would beat that time, but so what? None of us W32 owners are touting our boats as racing machines, just very capable cruising boats that offer more than some people would have others believe. As for these "tons of boats that would beat that time" have you taken into consideration that this boat is loaded heavy for cruising and it wasn't a race? Read the story again, the last bit that was done under power was because the wind died after a gale....

Why bother with your comment? I'm sure that an aircraft carrier would make better time to San Diego while motoring "the rumb line" but that isn't what this story is about.

This trip is in the books. If you are going to bring the hypothetical "tons of 32' boats would beat that time" argument then don't bother
I guess everyone reads these threads differently. I have made several complimentary post of the W32. I am not attacking the boat, the owners, nuthin'! No need to be defensive.

However most of the last 10-15 posts were about W32 performance. Several people cited race results and finally a post (actually a repost) of that cabo trip is posted. In context of the last 15 posts I presume we are beating the dead horse about the 100 mile a day average that was achieved on that beating trip.

The W32 is a fine middle of the road, in terms of performance, boat. It is cheap to buy, capable in heavy seas but a high performer it is not. Die on the cross defending W32 performance. Cite a couple of race wins (on handicap) but there is enough opinion out here that says defending such a position is misleading to someone interested in a 32 foot boat with better than average or best in class performance.

You can get a lot 32 foot boats with better performance. You will sacrifice many things the W32 excells at. You may pay more per foot for such a boat.

Love your boats but be realistic in its strength and weaknesses.

I really dont get why discussions of ones own boat always gets so defensive and personal. Not germane to this thread but I would be very happy to tell you all the things I don't like about my boat and what boats in same price and length do those shortfall items better. The dirty little secret of CF is that probably 10% of the members are long range cruisers. 40% are coastal / weekend sailors. 50% are either looking to be one of the first two or are done being one of the first two.

I would much rather help a person interested in beer can & regatta racing spend 50k on a boat that does that much better than a W32. I would much rather get a couple looking to go long range for 50k into a boat like the W32.

OP has made the choice and a good one in my book. If I had 50k and wanted to step aboard and go now the w32 is right near the top of my list. I went aboard looked seriously and decided to buy something more suited to what I am doing for the next few years.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:54   #177
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Well not just aircraft carrier of course. Why such exaggeration? We do an easy 8 knots upwind at a 50 degree true windangle. That is close to 200 mile days. At 40 knot wind speeds we need to go down to 7 knots boatspeed for comfort. Pretty sure I do the trip in half the time. Motoring I do it in 4 days.

A 31' steel boat that I sailed a lot (fin keel van de Stadt design) would do it in 11-12 days. The W32 didn't do too badly apart for that 60 degree angle. I don't really understand why it needs that much? Or is there a current involved?

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Old 10-01-2012, 20:02   #178
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

I owned a Westsail 32 for five years in the Caribbean, and I loved it except when I was sailing to windward. My Westsail was underballasted by at least 1000 pounds, and with round bilges, we really heeled over going to windward.

The amount of ballast on the Westsail 32 varied over the years with the economic fortunes of the builder. In good times the keel had encapsulated lead, and in poor economic conditions it had encapsulated steel punchings with about 1000 pounds less ballast. I had one of the boats with less ballast. I went so far as to add ballast to stiffen up the boat when going to windward.

I loved my Westsail 32, and I would be happy to sail around the world on one. My wife does not like it when a boat heels over, and so I had to get a catamaran for her to go on the circumnavigation. I still like the Westsail 32. They are an honest cruiser for downwind sailing around the world. If I ever return to my monohull days, I would be happy to do it in a Westsail 32.

Addendum: I also don't like sailing to windward in my Privilege 39 catamaran. Although the boat doesn't heel over, it's a lot more work, and hard on sailing gear. I don't judge whether I want to own or cruise in a sailing vessel on it's windward performance. I am a downwind around the world sailor, and if I never sail to windward again, it will be too soon!
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:46   #179
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I guess everyone reads these threads differently. I have made several complimentary post of the W32. I am not attacking the boat, the owners, nuthin'! No need to be defensive.

However most of the last 10-15 posts were about W32 performance. Several people cited race results and finally a post (actually a repost) of that cabo trip is posted. In context of the last 15 posts I presume we are beating the dead horse about the 100 mile a day average that was achieved on that beating trip.

The W32 is a fine middle of the road, in terms of performance, boat. It is cheap to buy, capable in heavy seas but a high performer it is not. Die on the cross defending W32 performance. Cite a couple of race wins (on handicap) but there is enough opinion out here that says defending such a position is misleading to someone interested in a 32 foot boat with better than average or best in class performance.

You can get a lot 32 foot boats with better performance. You will sacrifice many things the W32 excells at. You may pay more per foot for such a boat.

Love your boats but be realistic in its strength and weaknesses.

I really dont get why discussions of ones own boat always gets so defensive and personal. Not germane to this thread but I would be very happy to tell you all the things I don't like about my boat and what boats in same price and length do those shortfall items better. The dirty little secret of CF is that probably 10% of the members are long range cruisers. 40% are coastal / weekend sailors. 50% are either looking to be one of the first two or are done being one of the first two.

I would much rather help a person interested in beer can & regatta racing spend 50k on a boat that does that much better than a W32. I would much rather get a couple looking to go long range for 50k into a boat like the W32.

OP has made the choice and a good one in my book. If I had 50k and wanted to step aboard and go now the w32 is right near the top of my list. I went aboard looked seriously and decided to buy something more suited to what I am doing for the next few years.
Where is the exasperation icon. I agree with you! Where have I said that the Westsail is a world beater?
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Old 10-01-2012, 21:14   #180
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Re: Westsail 32 - Opinions Needed !

"You can get a lot 32 foot boats with better performance. You will sacrifice many things the W32 excells at. You may pay more per foot for such a boat."

Apples and oranges are seldom the same price either.........
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