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europaflyer · 27-04-2012, 04:32

Hi folks,

As part of my long quest to decide on the 'right' cruising boat, I've been looking at full-keel double enders, in particular the ubiquitous Westsail 32 and the Ingrid 38. I know that both these boats have reputations as excellent bluewater cruising yachts. However, the Ingrid in particular has a rather low ballast ratio (only 31%, against a moderate 36% for the Westsail) and both have a large beam, which to me points to a significant range of inverted stability. All the more worrying for the Ingrid, with the massive amounts of standing rigging bringing the C of G higher still. I would be very interested if anyone has the actual AVS data for either of the boats - hopefully to prove me wrong! The story of Westsail 32 Satori (here: Sailing Vessel 'Drifter' - A Westsail 32, a dream and a plan) is comforting in some ways and a little worring in others - yes, the boat weathered the storm (even without its crew!) but sustaining a 90 degree knockdown for 30(!) seconds without recovery seems like bizarre behaviour, especially in such a well thought of cruising yacht.

Can anyone reassure me here?

Cheers!

barnakiel · 27-04-2012, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Hi folks,

2) excellent bluewater cruising yachts

3) Ingrid in particular has a rather low ballast ratio (only 31%, against a moderate 36% for the Westsail)

4) which to me points to a significant range of inverted stability

1) Can anyone reassure me here?

Hi,

1) I am afraid nobody can reassure you. This should not detract you from getting the cruising boat of your dreams and going cruising. There is no such thing as the perfect cruising design - all boats are better at something but often at the cost of being worse at something else. It is always a balance and you just try to get YOUR balance right.

2) I will strongly disagree with Westsail and Ingrid as being excellent bluewater yachts. They are indeed very good in some respects but they may also have some qualities that are less desirable. All will depend on the kind of cruising you have in mind. There is however one thing to these boats that seems to be crucial to cruising and may prevail over other factors: they tend to invoke the cruising dream. And the dream is the major motivator. Anybody who desires a boat like this to go cruising, should act accordingly.

3) Ingrid has a fine relatively narrow body and the ballast is very low. I would not worry too much about the 31 ratio as it is not only the ratio but also the material that counts (e.g. lead vs. iron) as well as the distribution of the remaining weight. I would also not worry about the rig. As long as the boat is built to original designer's specs she has the promise of being as safe as any other well designed boat. However, at least in case of Westsail, (and I think it may be a similar case with Ingrid) there has been so many executions and boats were built and finished by so many yards / owners that it is truly hard to say how well they actually stick to the original design.

4) If you search the web you will find both an abridged online and an xls tool that will let you calculate theoretical values. Of course the output will be only as good as the data you will feed into the forms. Prior to calculating things I can recommend reading in depth on what the values represent and how to interpret them.

I have seen a couple of Westsails and one Ingrid during our extended adventure. I loved the look of Ingrid. I think it could infest my mind with cruising dreams if not for the reason that I was sailing another double-ender. Westsails ranged wildly, but even so I would be rather be out at sea in one of them than in some modern designs. There are plenty of Westsail owners here so you will get full feedback on this one. They probably also have all the relevant numbers calculated.

I am always of the opinion that one should go cruising in the boat they fell in love with. If you wake up in the morning and you think "WHOA" I love my boat!" then that's actually it.

Good luck and happy cruising,
b.

europaflyer · 28-04-2012, 04:17

Thanks for the words of wisdom Barnakiel.

I couldn't agree more about choosing a boat which I have fallen in love with. Trouble is... this applies to so damn many boats! As a result, I've rashly decided to try applying a little common sense!

I'd be really interested to hear why you disagree that the Westsail and Ingrid are good bluewater yachts. To me they seem to fit the bill nicely... but then again I'm not exactly the world's most experienced sailor...

**GordMay** · 28-04-2012, 05:00

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, europaflyer.

You might be interested in Carl’s Sail Calculator
➥ Sail Calculator Pro v3.53 - 2500+ boats

**Pete7** · 28-04-2012, 05:24

I wonder how much loading 1000 kgs of supplies on board a 32ft yacht for an ocean crossing alters the AVS? it is of course an unknown, as will the AVS of any home built yachts with different layouts.

Applying common sense is likely to change your mind time and time again.

Perhaps the thing you really want is the "look back factor" in other words when you row ashore do you have one last admiring look back at your yacht.

Pete

barnakiel · 28-04-2012, 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer

(...) I couldn't agree more about choosing a boat which I have fallen in love with. Trouble is... this applies to so damn many boats! As a result, I've rashly decided to try applying a little common sense!

I'd be really interested to hear why you disagree that the Westsail and Ingrid are good bluewater yachts. To me they seem to fit the bill nicely... but then again I'm not exactly the world's most experienced sailor...

Hi,

I am not very experienced either. And I might be suffering from the same boat either: I fall in love with them, many of them ...

I was looking at boats like Westsail and Ingrid for a long long time before I decided to get something similar.

As for my disagreement it related to the adjective 'excellent' (which you moderated to 'good' above ;-)). I truly believe well built Ingrid and Westsail make good bluewater boats. Just having seen designs like Besteaver, Bougainvillea, Ovni or Atlantic (to name only a few) made me reserve the adjective excellent for what I in my bias perceive as excellent.

BTW I do not think one needs an excellent boat to go sailing. I believe one needs a sound, well designed, well built and well SAILED (doh, the last one being probably the hardest part) boat. Seen countless excellent boats, marinas are full of them. When you go out there and anchor somewhere you suddenly find the cruising crowd is made of all kinds. Excellence, or lack of it, is not an issue.

Cheers,
barnie

barnakiel · 28-04-2012, 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7

I wonder how much loading 1000 kgs of supplies on board a 32ft yacht for an ocean crossing alters the AVS? it is of course an unknown, as will the AVS of any home built yachts with different layouts.

Applying common sense is likely to change your mind time and time again.

Perhaps the thing you really want is the "look back factor" in other words when you row ashore do you have one last admiring look back at your yacht.

Pete

Pete,

I think perhaps if the 1000 of supplies is placed low and well secured, then as long as the boat has sufficient freeboard left there should not be any issues (other than the boat slowing down due to more wetted area and less SA/Displ.

An overloaded boat is a bad thing, but hulls like (generic) Westsail take load very well - they just sink in but otherwise their sailing properties change little. They sure have enough space in the bilges to hold the load too. (While other boats ... have no bilges to start with).

In fact, it may be that supplies loaded into the bilge would add to the AVS (?).

Look at cargo ships - no external ballast, load in excess of ship's light displacement, and they too make it across.

b.

**Pete7** · 28-04-2012, 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Seen countless excellent boats, marinas are full of them. When you go out there and anchor somewhere you suddenly find the cruising crowd is made of all kinds. Excellence, or lack of it, is not an issue.

Cheers,
barnie

Oh now isn't that the truth. Each year we see the French sailors in the scruffiest yachts you can imagine. Overloaded with kids and grandparents we sometimes wonder how they sleep 8 on a 24ft boat. Fenders are tiny beer can sized and ropes, well anything from washing line to polyprop will do. However, they are out there doing it and perhaps more importantly loving it.

Pete

barnakiel · 28-04-2012, 07:09

OP: these google search words;

STIX formula R3 xls boatdesign.net

Took me to the file that helps calculate some of the data you might like to calculate. I assume the designers went thru the same process while designing the boats. Not sure how good the xls is. Be your own judge.

Where Gord pointed there is a line that tells you how much the design is expected to sink when load added. You can compare between designs.

Cheers,
b.

gjordan · 28-04-2012, 07:21

I have spent a lot of time on both boats(never sailed the W32) and the Ingrid is a much more comfortable boat with a MUCH BETTER cockpit. The Ingrid will be faster, go to weather better and is a much more livable boat. Since money is almost always a deciding factor, go with what you can afford. ____Just another opinion____Grant.

europaflyer · 28-04-2012, 11:25

Thanks for all the responses folks! Time to give it all a good mull over.

sailronin · 29-04-2012, 10:35

Ingrid is a great boat, very comfortable in a seaway and not bad sailors. Quite a bit faster than a W32 when well sailed.
If built to spec an Ingrid has a small foot well for a cockpit (important if pooped by a following sea), small portlights, a strong house and conservative but adequate rig. I world be comfortable going virtually anywhere in a well found Ingrid having sailed Hawaii to San Diego and hundreds of coastal California miles aboard a wooden one in my younger years.

**roverhi** · 29-04-2012, 11:09

The fiberglass ingrids were almost all home built boats. They run the gamut from out of this world quality to junk. Ballast could be anything from cement to lead. Important that you somehow determine this. If you are concerned about the ballast/ displacement ratio, an Alajuela is an ingrid derivative with all lead ballast. They are usually quite a bit more money than the PNW Ingrid hulls, however.

Westsails originally had ballast of lead and boiler punchings. QC wasn't the greatest and at least one that we saw came out that were definitely lite in that regard. Ours was one with that type of ballast and ended up with a lot more weight in the keel than specified. We were 3" down on the lines when launched without any gear or provisions on board. FWIW, boat seemed to sail faster and better the lower she sunk on her lines. Later boats, some time after hull #200, had shaped lead castings for ballast which guaranteed the weight of the keel and concentrated the ballast more amidships.

Both of these boats are derivatives of North Sea Rescue boats. I wouldn't be at all concerned with their sea keeping ability in a storm. The design follows a thousand or more years of trial and error to get the best design for sailing in some of the roughest waters in the world.

There are some newer boats that I would feel as comfortable going into the roaring 40s in. Unfortunately, they are way way more expensive and mostly built of steel.

**Adelie** · 29-04-2012, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer

The story of Westsail 32 Satori (here: Sailing Vessel 'Drifter' - A Westsail 32, a dream and a plan) is comforting in some ways and a little worring in others - yes, the boat weathered the storm (even without its crew!) but sustaining a 90 degree knockdown for 30(!) seconds without recovery seems like bizarre behaviour, especially in such a well thought of cruising yacht.

Can anyone reassure me here?

Cheers!

Note that the boat came back up from several knock-downs, and the really impressive part is that it came back up with it's rig every time.