Westsail 28 Vs Baba 30

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by bob perry

Barns:
I think you had better sail a W28 before you jump on one. Make sure you can live comfortably with that degree of performance.

So there IS a performance issue.

THX for the clue. As soon as there is one hanging around I will ask the owner for a ride. Our own boat is a long keel double-ender and contrary to what many people think about this kind of hull, we do not seem to suffer in the performance department. If only someone could design a double-ender that does not roll downwind! A double-ender going downwind like an IMOCA, yes, this would rock ;-)

BTW The double ended type of hull is still available today from good boatyards in Finland, Sweden, Germany or Holland. I have seen a newish Dagero and I was most impressed.

b.

[slowshoes]

Originally Posted by LostAtSea2011

Very nice....I almost bought a Union 36 a few months ago but someone else beat me to it. Too bad im in Florida. I dont really need a boat that big but if i found one for a good price i would be interested.

Well, there's always the Union 32, designed by Ted Brewer.


1984 Union 32 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[Ocean Roads]

We are hopefully going for a test sail this weekend in my soon to be WS28.

[Ocean Girl]

I almost bought a WS28( never sailed her) and sailed a 32 about a dozen times. As much as I love the beefy construction and that face any storm feel, I just hated her motion. This WS32 just had a rough motion and I felt "beat up" every time I made landfall.
She had no grace (there i said it), don't know if that was a character of this particular WS 32 but man did it end my love affair for the vessel.
Erika

[LostAtSea2011]

Originally Posted by bob perry

Lost:
The newer Babas are called Tashiba 31's and they are an entirly different hull form with more deadrise and much flatter rocker. Their entries are finer and they have a harder turn to the bilge. They are far superior boats to the original Baba 30's.

If you stay within the Baba 30 hull mold series there is no difference other than options. They are nice boats.

Low:
I kind of figured that. I have no probem with the aesthetics of the Westsail 28 but that hull shape is awful.

Are there any differences between a 1978 and a 1984 Baba 30 ?

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by LostAtSea2011

Thanks for the opinions....I think im leaning more towards the Baba. The only thing i am worried about is the teak decks. There was a survey done about a year ago and it says the teak decks are in good shape but i know its probably a matter of time before they will need attention....I have never had a boat with teak decking so i dont know alot about them.

I just did a deck recore on a Tayana 37 - not fun, but not out of the question either. If you do all the work yourself and buy the glass and resin through a wholesaler, you're looking at about $2,000 and a summer of work dodging the rain (if outside) or probably could be done in six weeks-two months of weekends/evenings if you're indoors.

But, in nearly any 30-year-old boat, teak deck or not, water intrusion into the core is a good possibility. The vast majority of boats (then and now) have stancions bolted directly to the deck, where they flex and crack the upper layer of the sandwich and ... ta da! Water in the core!

The good news is that Tayanas and Babas have a very commonsense approach to the stanchions that prevents the above: they are mounted on a base and back-braced to the toe rail. The back brace limits their flexing and the base insures that if there is any, it breaks the easily replaced base and doesn't crack the deck. I'm sure there are other boats built like that, but I haven't seen any.

So ... once you have the teak deck up and recored, you will have a tremendously strong and problem-free deck, IMHO.

All in all though, if you can avoid the recore issue (i.e., find a Baba with a fiberglass deck), I'd do it even if it costs you several $K more.

[bob perry]

Lost:
Baba 30''s are all ouyt of the same hul and deck molds. As timer went on I'm sure there were gear changes and some finishing detauils may habe been streamlined but they are the same boat. There were a lot of owner options offerred on the baba's so find two identical boats would be difficult.

[LostAtSea2011]

Thanks Bob. I was looking at an '84 and the owner was saying the '84 was better because some things had been changed since the older models...even though he couldnt tell me what things haha.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

I almost bought a WS28( never sailed her) and sailed a 32 about a dozen times. As much as I love the beefy construction and that face any storm feel, I just hated her motion. This WS32 just had a rough motion and I felt "beat up" every time I made landfall.
She had no grace (there i said it), don't know if that was a character of this particular WS 32 but man did it end my love affair for the vessel.
Erika

Yep. There is some sort of urban legend going on about heavy displacement / full body / long / keel boats that are supposed to 'ride comfortably'.

I have sailed both Colin Archer types and Pogo types and did not find the archers to be the more comfortable ones.

I have sailed a Stephens and a HR that sailed upwind like a dream. And some Bavarias that sailed downwind very comfortably.

There is no one best boat for all types of sailing but heavy / full body is by no means a guarantee of comfort.

From onboard a small, rolly double ender ;-)
b.

[capnorv]

Originally Posted by sneuman

The good news is that Tayanas and Babas have a very commonsense approach to the stanchions that prevents the above: they are mounted on a base and back-braced to the toe rail. The back brace limits their flexing and the base insures that if there is any, it breaks the easily replaced base and doesn't crack the deck. I'm sure there are other boats built like that, but I haven't seen any.

So ... once you have the teak deck up and recored, you will have a tremendously strong and problem-free deck, IMHO.

All in all though, if you can avoid the recore issue (i.e., find a Baba with a fiberglass deck), I'd do it even if it costs you several $K more.

FYI my Hans Christian 34 is so constructed, but the toe rail is a bit higher (10 1/2"). It also came with fiberglass decks.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yep. There is some sort of urban legend going on about heavy displacement / full body / long / keel boats that are supposed to 'ride comfortably'.

I have sailed both Colin Archer types and Pogo types and did not find the archers to be the more comfortable ones.

I have sailed a Stephens and a HR that sailed upwind like a dream. And some Bavarias that sailed downwind very comfortably.

There is no one best boat for all types of sailing but heavy / full body is by no means a guarantee of comfort.

From onboard a small, rolly double ender ;-)
b.

NO, it's not a legend. I have never sailed a WS, but I have sailed a variety of light vs. heavier displacement boats. The WS could be an outlier for other reasons, I don't know. But in general, heavier displacement boats do have a more comfortable motion. I had a perfect opportunity a few years ago to experience this comparison directly. Sailed out on a Mariner 31 ketch, jib and jigger, which handled the 5-foot steep Chesapeake chop with aplomb. Sailed back in substantially the same conditions on a C&C 27 (single reefed main, no headsail). The latter was a horrible ride. Now, that's not at all scientific, but it is something ...

[blahman]

Originally Posted by hummingway

One their biggest design flaws may be the way transliteration can be applied to the the name? Forever doomed.

Well said.

----
To those who have issues with full keels...

Hopping on someone's W32 for a five day trip and having a "bad" feeling isn't surprising. I've never experienced a bad, uncomfortable motion from our W32. I tend to view claims such as "it's a slow boat" and "it hobby horses" and "it rolls too much", etc, as being caused by the sailor, not the boat.

Any boat can be sailed slowly and uncomfortably. For those of you who have had "bad" experiences with W32s and other full keel boats, consider that just maybe, your lack of experience with that particular boat was a prime contributor to the poor performance. Perhaps that boat wasn't setup right; bad weight distribution, too much bottom growth, too much mainsheet, bad stays'l slot, poor draft placement or halyard tension, blown out sails, whacky rig tension, etc. Are any of those things the boat's fault, no. Nevertheless, they are extremely common "conditions". Yes, cruisers can be more "relaxed" than "racers", but don't blame the boat when it sails poorly.

We all know those Volvo boats are FAST, right? But I guarantee, if you put me on one...it'd sail like a pig for a while! Sailors have this way of thinking "oh, if I can sail my boat well...I can sail any boat well", but it takes time and an open mind to learn to sail a boat to its potential.

Notice that one very rarely hears someone say "I sailed my Westsail 32 around the world, but I hate its motion and it sails upwind really bad and god I hate that boat." But BOY is it common to hear "I've sailed a Wetsnail (LOLOL!!!1!) a couple times and they suck."

My, admitted biased, POV.


Sweet coconuts to all,
Aaron

[bob perry]

Blah:
I feel the same way as you pretty much. Many boat performance problems are functions of the skipper trying to make the boat do what it was never designed to do. I think a well outfitted WS with god sails and a capable skipper, like me for example, would be a fine boat.

Case in point:
Client, "My boat has terrible weather helm".
BP, "Have you tried adjusting the traveler?"
Client, "Yes, I have it up as far to weather as I can get it."
BP, "Oh."

I could go on and on with these stories.
I'll say it again and I am ready to take the flack but here goes:
If you have never done any serious racing or even semi serious racing, chances are you are a not a good sailor in terms of making a boat work to it's full potential.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by sneuman

But in general, heavier displacement boats do have a more comfortable motion. I had a perfect opportunity a few years ago to experience this comparison directly.

(...)

Sailed out on a Mariner 31 ketch, jib and jigger, which handled the 5-foot steep Chesapeake chop with aplomb. Sailed back in substantially the same conditions on a C&C 27 (single reefed main, no headsail). The latter was a horrible ride. Now, that's not at all scientific, but it is something ...

Yep. One needs x times the energy to move a boat that is y times heavier.

But this is only one aspect of displacement. There are also other aspects - for example when two boats have the same displacement. They can still vary dramatically in comfort.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by bob perry

(...)
I'll say it again and I am ready to take the flack but here goes:
If you have never done any serious racing or even semi serious racing, chances are you are a not a good sailor in terms of making a boat work to it's full potential.

And I hope I will get no flack if I paraphrase you and say:

If you do not make a boat work to its full potential, chances are you are cruising.

b.