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Old 18-01-2015, 08:28   #91
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Originally Posted by Tayana42 View Post
My Tayana V42 is a solid serious bluewater capable boat. I mostly cruise along the coast of California out for a week or months at a time. I sometimes look with envy at boats with wide sterns, swim platforms, more heads, more cabins. But I have great confidence in the strength and integrity of my boat. Everything, every component is high quality and over built from rigging to anchoring to tankage. She is as comfortable in rough conditions as I could ask. And as a plus the teak wood work below is as beautiful and any home. You don't find these attributes in a boat built for the charter trade, at the lowest possible price, that is only expected to stay in charter for 5 years.


S/V B'Shert

One should never criticise other peoples boats. Bit if you'll excuse me . I'd like to use your commentary

In Europe Tayana is seen as a Asian boat , and has made very little impact. There have been persistent stories of delamination, leaking windows, black iron fittings and so forth. When I looked at them I was warned by others about " Chinese and Taiwanese junk " etc.

I merely use this to counter the view held amongst " some"'about the unsuitability or suitability. Of modern boats. As has been beaten to death here, it's not about wide transoms, or this keel or that

The fact is loads of people are crossing oceans in types of boats you are dissing here.

Equally there are those that eschew heavy and slow too.

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Old 18-01-2015, 08:31   #92
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Three years ago we attended the Annapolis Sailboat Show. I remember walking through a Catalina and thinking what they........



Whether that's good or bad, only time will tell.



.

The GM of boats. Well given the number of times the French gov bailed them put or helped them !!!!!!!!



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Old 18-01-2015, 08:32   #93
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

Ouch! He was not being specific on boat type, you were!
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Old 18-01-2015, 08:35   #94
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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The GM of boats. Well given the number of times the French gov bailed them put or helped them !!!!!!!!



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OK how does the French Government bail out an American company? Are you speaking of the Euro to US dollar? I remember a time back in the 80's that the frank was so low the French boats came into the USA like a flood and it established them.
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Old 18-01-2015, 08:36   #95
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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We just got back from Strictly Sail Chicago. We attended three seminars that were very good and spent the rest of the time looking around. Boats we looked at were Beneteau, Delphia, Jeanneau and Catalina. IMHO, I don't think they can take any more out of the materials they now use to build their boats.



I realize the middle class is almost gone and they have to keep prices down but I don't think they can do that with materials anymore. They will have to take their production facilities to third world countries and keep the prices down through cheaper labor.

Europeans would be reluctant to buy mass market boats from Asia , equally modern production methods and automation , mean offshoring to China isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Most of the changes to these boats are style changes.. Engineering changes have tended to as a result of different manufacturing methods or improvements in finite element analysis.

The hull for example is one of the least expensive parts of the boat to make. The big costs are hand finished this or that. Lots of boat buyers , simple choose between computer assembled interior furniture and hand assembled and really don't look much further.

Most modern boats are in fact more capable of going places then the owners that buy them.

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Old 18-01-2015, 08:38   #96
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Went to the Boatshow Today...

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OK how does the French Government bail out an American company? Are you speaking of the Euro to US dollar? I remember a time back in the 80's that the frank was so low the French boats came into the USA like a flood and it established them.

Firstly the US market for sailboats is about 1/3 of that of Europe. Hone markets are the key to the survival of these builders. The Us Market is a add on market for big producers ( the reverse is true for the small sports cruiser market )

I meant that beneteau has been bailed out a few times now


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Old 18-01-2015, 08:50   #97
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Firstly the US market for sailboats is about 1/3 of that of Europe. Hone markets are the key to the survival of these builders. The Us Market is a add on market for big producers ( the reverse is true for the small sports cruiser market )

I meant that beneteau has been bailed out a few times now


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Yes I was very aware that Beneteau had been bailed out as well as given tax breaks over the years so I guess you were not speaking of Catalina at all. You know reading numbers and seeing them is 2 different things. I have to say I have never seen so many sailboats in one general area (the Med) in my life.

Back in the day we were told that the hull/deck was about 20% of the cost base of a typical sailboat. Are you aware of what it is now?

And it is hard to argue that the new boats are up to more than the average sailor would put them through when we know that over 80% of them barely move off the dock.
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Old 18-01-2015, 08:58   #98
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Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Yes I was very aware that Beneteau had been bailed out as well as given tax breaks over the years so I guess you were not speaking of Catalina at all. You know reading numbers and seeing them is 2 different things. I have to say I have never seen so many sailboats in one general area (the Med) in my life.

Back in the day we were told that the hull/deck was about 20% of the cost base of a typical sailboat. Are you aware of what it is now?

And it is hard to argue that the new boats are up to more than the average sailor would put them through when we know that over 80% of them barely move off the dock.

Anecdotally , talking to beneteau , with new closed infusion systems, dry layup etc, they reckon they can use semi or nearly unskilled labour. I don't have numbers but it was clearly areas where a lot of hand finishing was needed that was a great concern re costs Robots are now cutting holes on the hull and some are looking at using them to fit hatches and port lights etc. The use of frameless bonded glass is another trend in mechanisation etc.

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Old 18-01-2015, 09:02   #99
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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...Delphia guy I asked if there were any in charter anywhere around the world and he said emphatically no. A quick google search proved that false. Maybe I'm just picky but if you're going to represent a product at least know something about it? Besides how things open and close?
Yes I agree many of the dealers on the boat shows (or anywhere for that matter) know less about the boats they are selling than me and that's just pathetic. I bet he did not tell you that a Delphia circumnavigated recently by the horn and with one single stop and another one is circumnavigating right now non stop. That would help to sell boats no? and is a more relevant information regarding the boat being used on charter service or no. Being used on charter only means the boat is tough and offers a very good relation quality/price.
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:10   #100
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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...
It was pretty crowded and we were in and out in a few minutes but the one thing I saw that I didn't like was the lack of backing plates, even at the winches. The ceiling inside the saloon was loaded with cap nuts but not a single backing plate.
You mean the ceiling was gelcoat? On that type of boats normally isn't but some kind of panels over the gelcoat for insulation and for keeping the backing plates out of view. Sometimes also the backplates are under the gelcoat with fiberglass covering them and are not visible.
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:17   #101
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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I know what liners do but surely there are builders that do not use them for structure purposes, I know the Swedes didn't use them but I am not up to date on other European builders...R
Yes the Swedes to, they use a structural grid over the hull that is bonded to it and that will support the furniture over it. That's pretty much how almost all fiberglass boats are built now. On this forum they seem to call to that a grid liner but in fact it is very different than what was called a liner that was used only as support of the furniture.
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:34   #102
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Yes the Swedes to, they use a structural grid over the hull that is bonded to it and that will support the furniture over it. That's pretty much how almost all fiberglass boats are built now. On this forum they seem to call to that a grid liner but in fact it is very different than what was called a liner that was used only as support of the furniture.
Grid liners have been around a long time and used to be glassed to the hull while it was still green. These types of reinforcement are very good and don't hide the hull in areas that contain thru hulls. I was wondering which current builders build boats without the full interior inner liners which are in vogue now?
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:39   #103
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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My Tayana V42 is a solid serious bluewater capable boat.... You don't find these attributes in a boat built for the charter trade, at the lowest possible price, that is only expected to stay in charter for 5 years.
S/V B'Shert
There is some confusion here regarding why charter boats are used for about 5 years and not more years. It has nothing to do with the boat ability to continue performing the job but with the charter market. I only charted sailboats for two times but both times they were new boats, I mean really new with just some months and it was not by accident. I choose them for that reason (and because I liked the boats). The value of what people are willing to pay for charter a boat varies with the age of the boat (and being a new model or not) not to mention that the boats that are charted first are the new ones and that gives to the ones that have them a competitive advantage over other operators.

All this factors put together plus the resale value of the boats means that is economically advantageous for a charter operator (in Europe) to sell the boats when they have about 5 years and buy new ones. That's an economic decision that relates only with the market and the best way to get a profit.

In fact those boats, when they are maintained by a good operator are many times choose by the ones that want a not very expensive but in good condition sailboat to circumnavigate. On another thread I posted about a Bavaria 44 bought after its charter service years and that, with minimal changes, circumnavigated by the Northwest passage without problems. They sold the boat after that still for a good price.
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:45   #104
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Grid liners have been around a long time and used to be glassed to the hull while it was still green. These types of reinforcement are very good and don't hide the hull in areas that contain thru hulls. I was wondering which current builders build boats without the full interior inner liners which are in vogue now?
They are not in vogue now. I believe that only Jeanneau and Beneteau use them. That is part of a system that is called integral "contre mold". Others use structural grids as I say. Look for instance at Bavaria:



I am not saying with this that the system used by Beneteau or Jeanneau is worst. it has disadvantages and advantages (otherwise they would be using the same as Bavaria, Hanse and all the others).
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:58   #105
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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They are not in vogue now. I believe that only Jeanneau and Beneteau use them. That is part of a system that is called integral "contre mold". Others use structural grids as I say. Look for instance at Bavaria:



I am not saying with this that the system used by Beneteau or Jeanneau is worst. it has disadvantages and advantages (otherwise they would be using the same as Bavaria, Hanse and all the others).
So is Bavaria using glassed in bulkheads to the actual hull? Floor grid looks good, is it glued or glassed in place?
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