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Old 14-01-2015, 10:35   #76
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Along with the First 50, I would start looking at the J 42..
Check this out.............
Performance
I guess the First 50 is for you I would say the 45 has already a very good interior and the boat has a solidity proven in many Hobbart races in terrible conditions (same boat, many races) and if I remember right, some victories on the class.

However I would have preferred the Salona 44, I like the water tight bulkheads and the stainless steel structure for the keel and shrouds as well as the possibility of having it with the hull in epoxy and done with vacuum infusion techniques at a very reasonable price. Both boats are not that different in what regards sailing. Regarding sailing look at what they say when the boat was hit by a sudden stronger wind:

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Old 14-01-2015, 10:36   #77
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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You mean. using old building techniques? I guess none. But it makes no sense in talking about liners since they are not used as they were at the beginning (to support furniture, but now are used as a separated structure with structural hull functions, a structure that is bonded to the hull.

If you asked me what is the boat that I think you would like to own, assuming you want a fast (but not to fast) and comfortable boat I would say a Xc45. The price? Very expensive of course.

Xc 45
I know what liners do but surely there are builders that do not use them for structure purposes, I know the Swedes didn't use them but I am not up to date on other European builders...R
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Old 14-01-2015, 10:48   #78
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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I know what liners do but surely there are builders that do not use them for structure purposes, I know the Swedes didn't use them but I am not up to date on other European builders...R
Polux I went through the link you posted but I can't really find any info on how they are built. Are all the builders, even the better ones all using sail drives these days? I know they are skinny going thru the water but I have always seen them as a cheaper option. The boat looks good, the galley is not the strong point.
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Old 14-01-2015, 11:11   #79
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

It is the second bankruptcy and it is just 1 month after the first. I had the bad luck of being the owner of the last boat out. I doubt whether they can make it again. I think they knew after the 1st bankruptcy that they were walking on thin ice. They gave me a contract whereby I became the owner of the boat right after the 1st payment, whilst they only had the right of retention if further payments were not made.

As dir Performance it is quite fast, da they specially produced a tall rig Gör me with 1200 square feet of sail area.





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Old 14-01-2015, 11:13   #80
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

Sorry wanted to Write.; second bankruptcy just 1 year after the first


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Old 14-01-2015, 11:53   #81
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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... Are all the builders, even the better ones all using sail drives these days? I know they are skinny going thru the water but I have always seen them as a cheaper option. The boat looks good, the galley is not the strong point.
Not, but it is not a cheap option, they are expensive. Some mass produced boats like jeanneau use the traditional drive. Saildrives are very reliable and all you have to do is to change the big ring each 7 years (probably it would not be needed but insurance companies demand that since it is the warranty that is given by manufacturers) and to took out of the water the boat once a year to change the oil.

Three in three years or so the smaller orings on the drive should be changed too. You get a better performance and less vibrations with a sail drive and probably they would make for a more dry engine bilges. They are completely waterproof and that is not the case with most other systems.
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Old 14-01-2015, 11:57   #82
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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It is the second bankruptcy and it is just 1 year after the first. I had the bad luck of being the owner of the last boat out. I doubt whether they can make it again. I think they knew after the 1st bankruptcy that they were walking on thin ice. They gave me a contract whereby I became the owner of the boat right after the 1st payment, whilst they only had the right of retention if further payments were not made.

As dir Performance it is quite fast, da they specially produced a tall rig Gör me with 1200 square feet of sail area.
Yes I know the boat sails well but I really like to go fast, kind of performance cruiser's style. Yes there are lots of Southerly's around but only one that was the first and one that was the last. That's a kind of distinctive honor
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Old 16-01-2015, 19:34   #83
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

We just got back from Strictly Sail Chicago. We attended three seminars that were very good and spent the rest of the time looking around. Boats we looked at were Beneteau, Delphia, Jeanneau and Catalina. IMHO, I don't think they can take any more out of the materials they now use to build their boats.

I realize the middle class is almost gone and they have to keep prices down but I don't think they can do that with materials anymore. They will have to take their production facilities to third world countries and keep the prices down through cheaper labor.
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Old 17-01-2015, 03:22   #84
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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We just got back from Strictly Sail Chicago. We attended three seminars that were very good and spent the rest of the time looking around. Boats we looked at were Beneteau, Delphia, Jeanneau and Catalina. IMHO, I don't think they can take any more out of the materials they now use to build their boats.

I realize the middle class is almost gone and they have to keep prices down but I don't think they can do that with materials anymore. They will have to take their production facilities to third world countries and keep the prices down through cheaper labor.
What exactly were you looking at to come to those conclusions?
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Old 17-01-2015, 11:01   #85
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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We just got back from Strictly Sail Chicago. We attended three seminars that were very good and spent the rest of the time looking around. Boats we looked at were Beneteau, Delphia, Jeanneau and Catalina. IMHO, I don't think they can take any more out of the materials they now use to build their boats.

I realize the middle class is almost gone and they have to keep prices down but I don't think they can do that with materials anymore. They will have to take their production facilities to third world countries and keep the prices down through cheaper labor.
I thought Catalina was middle class regarding the others you talk about. At least it is middle class in price.

Cruising boats always where expensive and I don't think they ever were less expensive than now. Modern shipyards are investing more and more on mechanization, robotic and high tech processes to diminish the number of hours needed to built a sailboat. They are far less on modern mass production shipyards regarding what was needed on the past but the quality of labor and specialization to deal with those modern techniques has to be superior.

Regarding moving the shipyards to countries with cheaper labor it was already tried: Several American brands build their boats in China and Poland is probably the country were more sailboats are built.
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Old 17-01-2015, 21:01   #86
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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I thought Catalina was middle class regarding the others you talk about. At least it is middle class in price.

Cruising boats always where expensive and I don't think they ever were less expensive than now. Modern shipyards are investing more and more on mechanization, robotic and high tech processes to diminish the number of hours needed to built a sailboat. They are far less on modern mass production shipyards regarding what was needed on the past but the quality of labor and specialization to deal with those modern techniques has to be superior.

Regarding moving the shipyards to countries with cheaper labor it was already tried: Several American brands build their boats in China and Poland is probably the country were more sailboats are built.
Three years ago we attended the Annapolis Sailboat Show. I remember walking through a Catalina and thinking what they offered for the price was pretty good, compared to the other mass-produced boats. But I didn't go "under the hood" and so that opinion is only based on a cursory look, and my failing memory.

I think it was the mid-90s when I bought Ferenc Máté's The World’s Best Sailboats. In it he featured Alden, Baltic, Cambria, Hinkley, Morris, Shannon, Swan and other high-quality builders. Chantiers Bénéteau also made the list. The write-up was very flattering. The Beneteau made today would never make it. But as a business model, they are doing things I don't see in the other boat manufacturers. They may one day be the GM of boat building, if they aren't already.

Whether that's good or bad, only time will tell.

We returned today to attend some more seminars. The lines to see these boats were at times long. A few boats had SOLD stickers on them. I believe they know what they are doing as far as surviving the soft market. I just hope they are making boats that will last as long as their predecessors. If not, the soft market will continue to erode.
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Old 17-01-2015, 23:03   #87
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

We went to the Chicago boat show yesterday and my favorite mid-size design on display was the Seaward. Don't see these around too much, they also have a very unique interior layout. Seems a lot more functional than just pretty. Would love to have the new 32.

But with the reps they send to these shows... Do they actually sell any boats off of these displays? The Seaward rep couldn't even tell me how many hulls they've sold over the years. Delphia guy I asked if there were any in charter anywhere around the world and he said emphatically no. A quick google search proved that false. Maybe I'm just picky but if you're going to represent a product at least know something about it? Besides how things open and close?


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Old 18-01-2015, 07:00   #88
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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But with the reps they send to these shows... Do they actually sell any boats off of these displays? The Seaward rep couldn't even tell me how many hulls they've sold over the years.
When we looked at the boat yesterday, my SO said the rep sitting inside the boat had "Hake" on his name tag. Not sure if it was Nick or not but I'm pretty sure Nick Hake is the designer and owner.

It was pretty crowded and we were in and out in a few minutes but the one thing I saw that I didn't like was the lack of backing plates, even at the winches. The ceiling inside the saloon was loaded with cap nuts but not a single backing plate.
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Old 18-01-2015, 07:31   #89
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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I think it was the mid-90s when I bought Ferenc Máté's The World’s Best Sailboats. In it he featured Alden, Baltic, Cambria, Hinkley, Morris, Shannon, Swan and other high-quality builders. Chantiers Bénéteau also made the list. The write-up was very flattering. The Beneteau made today would never make it.
Neither would the Aldens, Cambras, Hinkleys, or Shannons - although Hinkley is now building a sailboat again, so might make a future issue.

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Old 18-01-2015, 07:53   #90
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Neither would the Aldens, Cambras, Hinkleys, or Shannons - although Hinkley is now building a sailboat again, so might make a future issue.

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You know that would make a very interesting book today, wonder who would be in it??
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