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Old 13-01-2015, 17:12   #61
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Re: went to the boatshow today...

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
in the late 70s and early 80s there was a drastic change in boat disigns, and ways of building using fiberglass and fiberglass was only a few years new in boat building. But the newer designs were the big issues, the IOR standards were way out of the norm and fat bellied boat were on the market.
Now those boats are very sought after, I know as I own one.
And then the wide stern designs appeared and the the same prossed occured and again with the twin wheel, the canting keel, the "B&R" rig, Fin keels, and the list goes on..
New designs are always appearing on the market, and after passing the first arguments, fall into the mainstream and accepted and in years to come are sought after by the newer generation..
I would almost guess the person who designed a keel board to be moved under the boat instead of hanging off the starboard side had his ideas dissed as much as the new galleys and handholds in production boats.
Nah, you are not going to convince anybody here. They love their old boats and are convinced that old designs are far better, that boat design evolution is an illusion and that new boats are only good to be at the marina even if they are used regularly to cross oceans and circumnavigate. Anyway its a good thing because the vast majority has only money for an old boat.

Nice to see that you diverge even if you don't own a new design
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Old 13-01-2015, 17:43   #62
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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a year ago I went to the Dusseldorf Boat Show and ended up buying a Southerly 42RST. Upto now, I have been sailing Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42 DS.
I didn't actually intend to buy a new boat, as my old one was just 7 years old.

But when I saw the Southerly, I realized that this is a completely different league as far as quality, seaworthyness and performance is concerned and it has the advantage of a lift keel. However, these things come with a price that is about 3 times as high as the one of the Jeanneaus. Southerly is a good example of a builder that produces excellent boats with mostly manual work. Even at the high price, they do not cover their cost and before my boat was finished, they went into liquidation. So I had to hire the 4 man crew to finish the boat under the supervision of a marine surveyor. As extensive tests showed, the result is excellent, but the extra cost on top of the already high price is huge.
That was the first Bankruptcy or the second one? They went down in 2013, new investor and they went under again in 2014.

Congratulations for the boat, a very nice one, the preferred of my wife. I like faster boats and had a lot of trouble to convince her to let go.

Yes, they are very expensive and as you said manually made and that's part of the problem since automation and the use of robotics can bring the price down but needs an huge investment. Their price was becoming less and less competitive each year. It is just a pity since they where one of the few British surviving shipyards and one that had a great deal of innovation and great designs. I hope they can reborn again but for that something has to change to allow them to make less expensive boats.
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Old 13-01-2015, 18:06   #63
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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That was the first Bankruptcy or the second one? They went down in 2013, new investor and they went under again in 2014.

Congratulations for the boat, a very nice one, the preferred of my wife. I like faster boats and had a lot of trouble to convince her to let go.

Yes, they are very expensive and as you said manually made and that's part of the problem since automation and the use of robotics can bring the price down but needs an huge investment. Their price was becoming less and less competitive each year. It is just a pity since they where one of the few British surviving shipyards and one that had a great deal of innovation and great designs. I hope they can reborn again but for that something has to change to allow them to make less expensive boats.
Less expensive is always good if you can keep the quality level up but I think the biggest issue as I have mentioned before is that the average sailboat buyer these days is a poundage buyer and they want the biggest boat at the lowest price. They are being well served by the sailboat factories in France and Germany. The world is full of examples of certain products costing 3 times more than the commodity products but still selling very well, some of the top brands in automobiles are a good example. The problem is that the used market allows buyers to pick up a 3-5 year old HR or Contest etc. at very attractive prices and it eats into the niche market that isn't that big to begin with. The sailboat market is actually quite small world wide.
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:24   #64
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Re: went to the boatshow today...

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Nice to see that you diverge even if you don't own a new design
I would love to own a new design.. The FIRST I own now is an early IOR design and If you've ever sailed one offshore, you know they are squirley as **** on a down wind run in following seas. Their Damn Fast but Damn Squirley.. You have to run off DDW a few degrees and be good with a "jibe"..
I would love to have a new FIRST 50..
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:30   #65
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Nobody buys a boat to sit at the dock, but many boats do just that.
.
Mine was... It was 20 years old and the sails and running rigging was still in the origional bags, never opened..
The owner built his own home on a lake in northern Idaho and needed a place to stay while he was working on his home. He bought the boat with the idea of someday going cruising but never did.. It was a good find..
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:46   #66
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Less expensive is always good if you can keep the quality level up but I think the biggest issue as I have mentioned before is that the average sailboat buyer these days is a poundage buyer and they want the biggest boat at the lowest price. They are being well served by the sailboat factories in France and Germany. The world is full of examples of certain products costing 3 times more than the commodity products but still selling very well, some of the top brands in automobiles are a good example. The problem is that the used market allows buyers to pick up a 3-5 year old HR or Contest etc. at very attractive prices and it eats into the niche market that isn't that big to begin with. The sailboat market is actually quite small world wide.
A bigger boat is many times a more seaworthy and a faster boat. Normally the ones that buy new boats are not the same that buy used boats and it is very difficult to find a Contest or Halberg Rassy with 3 years.

As it was already said elsewhere the rise in quality of a sailboat is not proportional to the rise in price and when that price goes to 2 or 3 times the price of a mass production boat things gets very hard in what concerns to sell sailboats and when sailboat are not sold....the shipyard goes bankrupt. In European Boat Contest they call to mass production boats family boats and to boats like the Southerly luxury boats....you have to pay a lot more for luxury
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:48   #67
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Mine was... It was 20 years old and the sails and running rigging was still in the origional bags, never opened..
The owner built his own home on a lake in northern Idaho and needed a place to stay while he was working on his home. He bought the boat with the idea of someday going cruising but never did.. It was a good find..
That was not a good find but an incredible one
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:54   #68
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Re: went to the boatshow today...

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I would love to own a new design.. The FIRST I own now is an early IOR design and If you've ever sailed one offshore, you know they are squirley as **** on a down wind run in following seas. Their Damn Fast but Damn Squirley.. You have to run off DDW a few degrees and be good with a "jibe"..
I would love to have a new FIRST 50..
Compared to new designs all are including 15 years old boats, even more recent designs cannot compare with very recent cruising boats with all beam pulled back and chines. They are very easy to sail downwind and take a lot of abuse without complaining. That gives a lot of confidence to go faster and allows to carry more sail downwind.
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:59   #69
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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A bigger boat is many times a more seaworthy and a faster boat. Normally the ones that buy new boats are not the same that buy used boats and it is very difficult to find a Contest or Halberg Rassy with 3 years.

As it was already said elsewhere the rise in quality of a sailboat is not proportional to the rise in price and when that price goes to 2 or 3 times the price of a mass production boat things gets very hard in what concerns to sell sailboats and when sailboat are not sold....the shipyard goes bankrupt. In European Boat Contest they call to mass production boats family boats and to boats like the Southerly luxury boats....you have to pay a lot more for luxury
I think we all know that a fine automobile is not built 3 times better than an entry level one not even twice as good even though the price may be 3 times higher they are still selling just fine. What's your point?
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Old 14-01-2015, 05:23   #70
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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I think we all know that a fine automobile is not built 3 times better than an entry level one not even twice as good even though the price may be 3 times higher they are still selling just fine. What's your point?
My point is that in what regards the sailboat market it is almost impossible to make boats that are just a bit better than boats that cost half the price and run a big shipyard with so many models as Southerly did. Normally the brands that do that only work on a small scale shipyard basis, have a very limited number of models and make boats only by command.

Southerly was running a big shipyard but not producing boats cheaper than those semi-custom ones. None of the advantages a big shipyard can give in therms of reducing of costs and all the financial exposure a big shipyards has. An announced disaster.
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Old 14-01-2015, 05:46   #71
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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My point is that in what regards the sailboat market it is almost impossible to make boats that are just a bit better than boats that cost half the price and run a big shipyard with so many models as Southerly did. Normally the brands that do that only work on a small scale shipyard basis, have a very limited number of models and make boats only by command.

Southerly was running a big shipyard but not producing boats cheaper than those semi-custom ones. None of the advantages a big shipyard can give in therms of reducing of costs and all the financial exposure a big shipyards has. An announced disaster.
Can't debate what happened and your probably right why it happened. My point is that people will pay a very substantial premium for products that are not seen as a commodity. Entry level boats are the commodity product and as such price determines who is succesful in this market which is why in real terms the prices have been getting better over the years. A premium product is in a different league and it depends on how succesful the company has been in promoting the brand. I also agree that these niche builders can't try to be everything to everybody like the commodity builders. For example it would not make sense for Oyster to build a 30 foot boat.
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Old 14-01-2015, 05:55   #72
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

Say Polux on another thought, you spend tons of time reviewing what is out in the current market place. Randy was suggesting he would love to own a new First to replace his First 42 a boat I really like. It got me thinking. Which builder out there right now builds a FG boat without full liners, tabs bulkheads to the hull,uses shaft drive motors, has a real bilge and keel stub and makes a properly set up cruiser with good storage all the while not going to any extremes in design while building a real stout boat ? What sort of premium does one have to pay to buy a boat like this?
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Old 14-01-2015, 09:45   #73
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Say Polux on another thought, you spend tons of time reviewing what is out in the current market place. Randy was suggesting he would love to own a new First to replace his First 42 a boat I really like. It got me thinking. Which builder out there right now builds a FG boat without full liners, tabs bulkheads to the hull,uses shaft drive motors, has a real bilge and keel stub and makes a properly set up cruiser with good storage all the while not going to any extremes in design while building a real stout boat ? What sort of premium does one have to pay to buy a boat like this?
Along with the First 50, I would start looking at the J 42..
Check this out.............
Performance
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Old 14-01-2015, 09:53   #74
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Along with the First 50, I would start looking at the J 42..
Check this out.............
Performance
I always liked the J boats having raced on them years ago. Also have seen a couple in some out of the way places but I think they have had more than their share of problems. The First 50 might be a better choice but if I was shopping it would be for something around 42-44 feet, just my idea of the perfect boat size for 2 people but it has to be well designed for cruising.
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Old 14-01-2015, 10:18   #75
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Say Polux on another thought, you spend tons of time reviewing what is out in the current market place. Randy was suggesting he would love to own a new First to replace his First 42 a boat I really like. It got me thinking. Which builder out there right now builds a FG boat without full liners, tabs bulkheads to the hull,uses shaft drive motors, has a real bilge and keel stub and makes a properly set up cruiser with good storage all the while not going to any extremes in design while building a real stout boat ? What sort of premium does one have to pay to buy a boat like this?
You mean. using old building techniques? I guess none. But it makes no sense in talking about liners since they are not used as they were at the beginning (to support furniture, but now are used as a separated structure with structural hull functions, a structure that is bonded to the hull.

If you asked me what is the boat that I think you would like to own, assuming you want a fast (but not to fast) and comfortable boat I would say a Xc45. The price? Very expensive of course.

Xc 45
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