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Old 15-02-2015, 08:18   #181
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Maybe you never heard about Giebateau a first 40.7 that is circumnavigating (for many years) with a Dutch family and sailing on high latitudes?





or the several First 36.7 that made the Sidney Hobarth without a problem? ..
I agree about the varnish dough

How many of those boats are stock? The 36.7 cannot compete in many offshore races without adding a lead shoe to the keel. The boat avs is less than 119. How many keels/rudders have fallen off newer Beneteaus, how many have fallen off PSC's? There are numerous stories of newer Beneteaus needing extensive repairs after sailing in slightly heavy weather. The booms on the non-first models are undersized, it is not uncommon to damage the boom after a hard jibe. The First models use upgraded hardware such as masts, winches, steering. There was a thread at Sailing Anarchy which documented known shortcomings on the newer Beneteaus.
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Old 15-02-2015, 08:32   #182
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I went to the Central New York boat show this past weekend in Syracuse, NY, US. Only six years ago one could expect to see several sailboats over 25 feet sailboats buried among the many powerboats; this year there was one sailboat with a cabin approximately 20 footer, and the remaining 7 were 16 foot or less recreational sailboats, Hobie kayaks with sails, and cats.

Folks were all saying how great the economy has turned around and boats are doing much better.

Based on my observation at the show it seems that pontoon boats are the economic gold rush of boats, and sail boats are almost not worthy of any economic consideration.

Moreover, there used to be more nautical products and accessories available for purchase; now it truly is a boat show: Boats Only.

Interesting to be to see the changes in the local area change.
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Old 15-02-2015, 09:04   #183
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

I noticed that over the years the boat shows, at least the ones in our neck of the woods, MA, RI and ME, had become more of "lifestyle" marketing fairs than true trade exhibitions. I was taught early on to attend the last day, usually a Sunday, both for ease of parking and last day closeout sales at the booths. And I would never leave empty handed as deals were usually the norm.

Lately those deals became rare exceptions as most of the stuff there is priced way above everyday deals one can find online. And many small exhibitors, probably due to economic downturn, stopped showing up on a regular basis, if at all. Not to mention the number of times I have been told by a rep "the guy who can answer your question is not here at the moment" or more honest - "don't know, call our main office few days after the show". Duhhh.

I also wonder why there are few or none marine flea market tents and booths as these would be doing a ton of business with the crowd. They don't have to be next to new boats but why not use the show as a magnet for this type of potential attendee? Talking to old salts I rarely hear of them going to a boat show locally, precisely for the reason that the deals are not there anymore.
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Old 19-02-2015, 08:12   #184
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

We went to the New England Boat show two days ago. After looking at Hanse, Beneteau, Hunter, Island Packet, Catalina, Jeaneau, Bavaria etc. I don't see how the US domestic companies... especially Hunter and IP expect to sell any boats in the upcoming years. While on the Hanse 45ft boat which even came with teak decks and carbon helm wheels, we overheard the IP salesman next door telling a customer that his company had built twelve 40ft Blue Jacket boats over the past 3 years and had already sold 5 of them. The IP was priced over 100k more than the Hanse and 40ft vs 45ft, and the Hanse was better equipped, more style etc. Hunter... the same story... cramped cockpit, dark interior vs wide open European style cockpit, light interior colors and style. The US guys just don't get it, they're still building boats for buyers from the 1980s and early 90's.

The Bavaria 46 footer stood out well above the rest for features and cost, and I think they make over 12 boats per week vs 12 boats over a three year period! Maybe the US companies need to buy some robots.


But the Blue Jacket 40 by IP just looked plain silly sitting there priced at $100k more than a better equipped Hanse 45. The Hanse had everything, the Blue Jacket looked stripped down and cheap especially with the partial fiberglass salon cabin sole, fiberglass decks and undersized stainless helm.
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Old 19-02-2015, 08:44   #185
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

When I went to the Annapolis boat show a few years ago, I saw all the same boats you mentioned. To me, the IPs had better joinery, were better upholstered and overall looked better built. Last year I saw the Blue Jackett here and thought it was a lot like the IP in quality. They don't sell as many because they cost more to build and aren't doing the Henry Ford thing.

I do like the looks of the new European boats but, from what I've seen, you get what you pay for.
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Old 19-02-2015, 09:07   #186
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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When I went to the Annapolis boat show a few years ago, I saw all the same boats you mentioned. To me, the IPs had better joinery, were better upholstered and overall looked better built. Last year I saw the Blue Jackett here and thought it was a lot like the IP in quality. They don't sell as many because they cost more to build and aren't doing the Henry Ford thing.

I do like the looks of the new European boats but, from what I've seen, you get what you pay for.
Or from what we saw.... very few buyers paying to get US boats. The reasons are obvious, old worn out designs, cramped cockpits, interiors build for buyers who are mostly too old to sail or are deceased... geez, I actually feel bad for their salespeople. Kinda like they're sitting there trying to sell a 90's desktop PC while the neighbor is marketing an Ipad air.

Even our 2002 Oyster has a deck saloon layout with light interior colors, whereas the modern US designed boats... no deck saloon, dark interiors... and what's with the old style jungle gym arches instead of the new sleek Beneteau fiberglass cockpit arches? Even our old Hunter had a fiberglass arch... now they've gone backwards to jungle gym.... a puzzlement?
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:06   #187
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Or from what we saw.... very few buyers paying to get US boats. The reasons are obvious, old worn out designs, cramped cockpits, interiors build for buyers who are mostly too old to sail or are deceased... geez, I actually feel bad for their salespeople. Kinda like they're sitting there trying to sell a 90's desktop PC while the neighbor is marketing an Ipad air.

Even our 2002 Oyster has a deck saloon layout with light interior colors, whereas the modern US designed boats... no deck saloon, dark interiors... and what's with the old style jungle gym arches instead of the new sleek Beneteau fiberglass cockpit arches? Even our old Hunter had a fiberglass arch... now they've gone backwards to jungle gym.... a puzzlement?
It's funny but for me every negative you mentioned is a positive. I hate the bleached wood IKEA-style interiors of the latest fad. And IMO the fiberglass arches are too unsightly if not plain ugly. Not that the SS arches are beauties but still at least less bothersome visually.

And I'm not sure if your comparsion to PCs is correct as the function of a boat has not changed as much as a function of a "computing device" has changed. It's like comparing '57 Chevy with 2015 Gulfstream Jet.
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:39   #188
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

So you can chose between Hunter and IP at the next boat show. Should be no problem finding a place near the front of the line.
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:47   #189
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Or from what we saw.... very few buyers paying to get US boats. The reasons are obvious, old worn out designs, cramped cockpits, interiors build for buyers who are mostly too old to sail or are deceased... geez, I actually feel bad for their salespeople. Kinda like they're sitting there trying to sell a 90's desktop PC while the neighbor is marketing an Ipad air.

Even our 2002 Oyster has a deck saloon layout with light interior colors, whereas the modern US designed boats... no deck saloon, dark interiors... and what's with the old style jungle gym arches instead of the new sleek Beneteau fiberglass cockpit arches? Even our old Hunter had a fiberglass arch... now they've gone backwards to jungle gym.... a puzzlement?
Unfortunately most sailors buying new boats spend more time doing due diligence on flat screen TV's than understanding the quality of construction on the boat they are buying. If its new and shiny,big and bright with large galleys and oversized heads and their wife is cranked up by the looks and feel then they are ready to do business. I have to admit that some of the new styles are very cool looking and well designed for the typical buyer and the builders and designers have done a first class job of marketing to these buyers. If you spend enough time looking where few ever do you might be surprised by what you find. Having said that the French and Germans pretty much own the entry level sailboat market and US builders have been lowered into nieche category. That's kinda what happens when you quit innovating and rest on your laurels.
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:55   #190
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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So you can chose between Hunter and IP at the next boat show. Should be no problem finding a place near the front of the line.
I already posted in another thread a while ago how I went to the boat show with my boatbilider/naval architect friend a few years back and we specifically looked at IPs there as they were the priciest new sailboats at the show (NE Boat show not the most fancy as you know). He basically ragged on it big time. His main complaint was that the build quality did not justify the price in high $400s-mid $500s. Although I did like the interior better than most other new boats there. Without him in tag I would've been like most average sailors smitten with the brand name and price. But he put my head right indicating all the minuses which he did not expect in a half a mil 38' new boat. Just sayin.
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:06   #191
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Unfortunately most sailors buying new boats spend more time doing due diligence on flat screen TV's than understanding the quality of construction on the boat they are buying. If its new and shiny,big and bright with large galleys and oversized heads and their wife is cranked up by the looks and feel then they are ready to do business. I have to admit that some of the new styles are very cool looking and well designed for the typical buyer and the builders and designers have done a first class job of marketing to these buyers. If you spend enough time looking where few ever do you might be surprised by what you find. Having said that the French and Germans pretty much own the entry level sailboat market and US builders have been lowered into nieche category. That's kinda what happens when you quit innovating and rest on your laurels.
Bingo! That's what my friend did first thing after climbing into IP's cockpit - he opened the lazzarette and put his hands inside checking out the finish underneath the seats. When he almost cut himself on all the unfinished glass there he cursed and stated to me - "imagine going there to retrieve something when the boat is pitching, etc". Most others were ooing and aweing at the nautical themed cabin table or the shiny bathroom.

Now I certainly would have excused this in an entry level bare bones large production numbers boat being marketed at say $150K (even though I personally think no boat should leave the production facility with such lack of finish in an area frequently used and accessed) but not on a $500K boat holding itself up as "well built" alternative to the cookie cutters.
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:24   #192
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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So you can chose between Hunter and IP at the next boat show. Should be no problem finding a place near the front of the line.
Oddly enough, if someone has the cash, getting to the front of the Oyster line isn't a problem, either.

It's a bit odd to lump these two boats together, don't you think? They're quite different brands.
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:26   #193
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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How many of those boats are stock? The 36.7 cannot compete in many offshore races without adding a lead shoe to the keel. The boat avs is less than 119. How many keels/rudders have fallen off newer Beneteaus, how many have fallen off PSC's? There are numerous stories of newer Beneteaus needing extensive repairs after sailing in slightly heavy weather. The booms on the non-first models are undersized, it is not uncommon to damage the boom after a hard jibe. The First models use upgraded hardware such as masts, winches, steering. There was a thread at Sailing Anarchy which documented known shortcomings on the newer Beneteaus.
Hum, an AVS of 119 is not that bad, some Catalina have much less, for instance the 42, and the same with reputable boats like the Sabre 402.

I know of two keels that has fallen on First sailboats, one due to a previous grounding other due to lose screws (unforgiving bad maintenance). Not saying that this type of boat (light build and fast) does not need more maintenance and care then a much heavier and slower boat neither that if I had one First 36.7 I would not reinforce the keel area and put bigger backing plates, but how costly and dificult is that to do?

I know also of some other boats of that type, very high quality and expensive sailboats, that lost the keel too (due to previous groundings and not proper repairs), namely a Sweden Yacht and a Maxi yacht (both great sailboats). For each Maxi or Sweden there are 30 or 40 First sailboat so those accidents are statistically a lot more meaningful then the two single ones with the First, so why bashing the First and not high quality very expensive sailboats like Sweden yachts or Maxi Yachts?

Those stories about Beneteaus needed repairs after being on bad weather regards some Oceanis, not First sailboats. I don't understand why you keep mixing both. They are made both by Beneteau but they are very different sailboats.
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:42   #194
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

I had alum water heater corrode to the point of spilling all the water from my two 55gal water tanks into the bilge. All it did was flush it down. No damage to anything as the water did not even touch the plywood of the seats under the cushions. Not sure if the same would hold for a flat no bilge modern production boat. And mine isn't even a long keel.

BTW, turned out since the boat was in the fresh water in Great Lakes its first 20 years one of the POs plumbed the water system to get the water from the lake via pump. But the subsequent owner took the boat to FL and must have put some salt water in before disconnecting it and/or without changing the heater. My surveyor noticed the POs old set up but since the heater looked fairly new we all assumed that it was replaced when the system was disconnected. So I ended up replacing the heater and one of the alum water tanks. Both looked farily new except for the bottom panels which were like a sieve. My seller did not know of this as he got that boat as a settlement from his hauler for some mishap with his own boat and actually never sailed or otherwise used her.
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Old 20-02-2015, 21:37   #195
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

I really like the Delphia boats. Traditional, conservative construction. What I don't like is the recent move to side-galleys, as opposed to corner-galleys. You can't make lunch when heeled over as easily in the former as the latter. But the builders seem to prefer the side galleys, no doubt driven by the charter trade. If I were to replace Voyageur with a new boat at a price point equivalent to the currently "similar" Jeanneau product, I would definitely consider Delphia.
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