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Old 27-01-2015, 17:34   #166
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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What determines how you rate " top" and " bottom" of the heap. You seem to confuse price with ability. A Bavaria can be a Mercedes , while a HR. Might be more like a AMG or semi customs car for example

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Only in your mind Dave. People that buy hi end cars do not buy Fords and people looking for hi end boats are not looking at Bavaria's.
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Old 27-01-2015, 17:36   #167
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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I ran across this on the Internet Boat Show today. It's a 2015 Moody 45AC Classic.





And all this for $267,895...
Yes great interiors but structurally not very different from a Hanse and I would say that a Dehler is better in what regards that. All of them are made by Hanse.

The Moody 45ac is a very nice boat with a very good quality interior with classic lines and a simplified rigging. Easy to sail and relatively fast for the type of boat.
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Old 27-01-2015, 18:19   #168
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Only in your mind Dave. People that buy hi end cars do not buy Fords and people looking for hi end boats are not looking at Bavaria's.

Most people buying hi end cars are buying image , brand , and interior trimmings. Many of these high end brands have far poorer reliability records then cars a third of their price, some can easily be outperformed again by much lower priced cars.

Boat buying is not dissimilar, what people put on top or bottom of the heap is rarely based on ability , more often , brand, image, lifestyle, wealth , etc

That's why I asked


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Old 27-01-2015, 18:21   #169
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Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Yes great interiors but structurally not very different from a Hanse and I would say that a Dehler is better in what regards that. All of them are made by Hanse.



The Moody 45ac is a very nice boat with a very good quality interior with classic lines and a simplified rigging. Easy to sail and relatively fast for the type of boat.

Actually it's a med boat disguising itself to appeal to a few Northern Europeans and Brits that still attach a mistaken nostalgia to the Marque.

The interior of the Salona you showed was far more seaworthy in my opinion.
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Old 27-01-2015, 18:36   #170
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Most people buying hi end cars are buying image , brand , and interior trimmings. Many of these high end brands have far poorer reliability records then cars a third of their price, some can easily be outperformed again by much lower priced cars.

Boat buying is not dissimilar, what people put on top or bottom of the heap is rarely based on ability , more often , brand, image, lifestyle, wealth , etc

That's why I asked


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So in your mind a Bavaria is an all round equal to Rustler or Oyster no matter the cost difference.
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Old 27-01-2015, 18:45   #171
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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So in your mind a Bavaria is an all round equal to Rustler or Oyster no matter the cost difference.

They are not equal. The Bavaria may be a better balance of money versus capabilities depending on the wealth of the buyer, his sensitivities etc.

All of them will suffice for most of the typical activities most sailors needs, all of them , with preparation will cross an ocean.

The rustler for example is not a good boat in warm climes nor if you like larger cockpits, the oyster is limiting of you don't like pilot houses. Etc

The modern ford will thunder down the motorway at 70 for ever just like the Mercedes , and today with some comfort too. The analogy isnt that different in boats,
If you've ever delivered so called high end boats you'll meet a lot of owners that are often way poorer sailors then the ones buying Bavarias , they are of course much wealthier
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Old 27-01-2015, 19:16   #172
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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They are not equal. The Bavaria may be a better balance of money versus capabilities depending on the wealth of the buyer, his sensitivities etc.

All of them will suffice for most of the typical activities most sailors needs, all of them , with preparation will cross an ocean.

The rustler for example is not a good boat in warm climes nor if you like larger cockpits, the oyster is limiting of you don't like pilot houses. Etc

The modern ford will thunder down the motorway at 70 for ever just like the Mercedes , and today with some comfort too. The analogy isnt that different in boats,
If you've ever delivered so called high end boats you'll meet a lot of owners that are often way poorer sailors then the ones buying Bavarias , they are of course much wealthier
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You are talking about hi value and who wouldn't agree with that. When you answer a question that wasn't asked we call that bridging and its used by savy folks who often do well at politics.
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Old 27-01-2015, 21:05   #173
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

This is a very interesting discussion, but one thing I neglected to mention. All three boats I was comparing were at about simular price neighborhood. Yet my first impression was that the Oceanis was the most cheaply made (although I sail the 38 and like it), above it was the Jeaneau, and above them all 2nd the Vision. All within similar price once you add your options.

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Old 28-01-2015, 09:32   #174
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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This is a very interesting discussion, but one thing I neglected to mention. All three boats I was comparing were at about simular price neighborhood. Yet my first impression was that the Oceanis was the most cheaply made (although I sail the 38 and like it), above it was the Jeaneau, and above them all 2nd the Vision. All within similar price once you add your options.
..
The Bavaria Vision is a lot of money for the boat but I am surprised that it sells competitively on the US versus similarly sized Jeanneau and Oceanis that are made in the US and do not pay the overseas transport.

The Vision is more expensive then the Bavaria cruising line and i believe that all the money difference goes to a better designed, better quality interior.

The Bavaria has a new 46 cruiser that won the European boat of the year contest this year not for being nice, in fact some of the testers agree that could be nicer, but for being better built and for sailing well. Several of the testers pointed out that it was the best Bavaria ever, in what regards build quality.

I like more the Vision design but maybe it is worth a look.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:57   #175
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Only in your mind Dave. People that buy hi end cars do not buy Fords and people looking for hi end boats are not looking at Bavaria's.
You are right but I don't think it was the point. Someone that buys an high end car does that mostly for prestige and luxury interiors so he would never buy a Ford even if some Fords have a higher reliability than some high end cars and the same happens with boats.

I remember some years ago a comparative test sail between a Dufour 425 and a High end XC 42: they were not able to find any significant difference between them in what regards sailing, including motion comfort. The Dufour 425 was slightly faster.

Teaser du match XC 42 / Dufour 425 - Vidéo Dailymotion

I believe the XC has a more better build and on more demanding conditions probably the XC will have a bit of an advantage and of course a much better quality interior.

I love the XC 42, it is a great sailboat but the point is that in what regards sailing and seaworthiness it is not that different than a Dufour 425 that costs 2 or 3 times more. I am pretty sure the Dufour 425 is built well enough to cope with all the conditions that one would encounter while sailing excepting high latitudes and out of the season sailing.

Off course, the ones that will buy the XC 42 will not be the same that will buy the Dufour 425 but the reasons will have not only to do with the XC42 to be a better sailing boat, maybe most have nothing to do with that, but with status and a luxurious interior, like on the cars.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:06   #176
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

One of the factors that often drives the price of anything up is tighter tolerances. Even wood joinery, as much as it moves through temperature and humidity, benefits if the tolerances are smaller. And the types of joints used makes a difference too. It's a lot more time consuming making a dovetail joint than it is making a rabbet.

In time, loose tolerances and inferior joints will expose themselves. It's hard for the untrained eye to see that in a new boat or car. That's why reputations built over time are so valued.
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Old 04-02-2015, 17:20   #177
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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You are talking about hi value and who wouldn't agree with that. When you answer a question that wasn't asked we call that bridging and its used by savy folks who often do well at politics.
I concur.
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Old 04-02-2015, 18:38   #178
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
One of the factors that often drives the price of anything up is tighter tolerances. Even wood joinery, as much as it moves through temperature and humidity, benefits if the tolerances are smaller. And the types of joints used makes a difference too. It's a lot more time consuming making a dovetail joint than it is making a rabbet.

In time, loose tolerances and inferior joints will expose themselves. It's hard for the untrained eye to see that in a new boat or car. That's why reputations built over time are so valued.
You nailed it Julie.
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Old 05-02-2015, 18:02   #179
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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Read the first few pages to see what this is all about. The Land Rover to modern suv nailed it. That plus once my buddy pulled up on his monster Fountaine Pajot, 50+ maybe 60 even (I don't know the sizes they build) it was over as far as the ladies were concerned. I have a pretty sweet ride, but my comfy cockpit was persona non grada once they stepped on his cat. "omg look at all the room it's so nice" so of course the party moved to his monster deck. I hate him lol. Next words out of my girlfriends mouth, " why don't you buy one of those" UGHH. Anyway I agree the creature comforts are nice, and yeah most people just go bopping around and don't hit the Ocean, but when the weather comes up and your caught in it and have to move, thats when I worry about these comfy builds. The monos are definitely getting wider with bigger cockpits to compete with the cats, but I think they are definitely cheaping out on the construction. I'm the shipwright at our Marina so I know. The glass is a lot thinner. Was at the Miami boat show last year, walked down to look at the new sailboats, and bump into my friend from high school on the new Beneteau 50. I haven't seen him since 1985. He's the largest Beneteau Dealer on the West coast, I think San Diego. Had to laugh lol. Anyway I waited until all potential customers were off the boat and proceeded to tell him what a piece of crap it was. Not one piece of real wood on the whole interior. Cabinets like someone else mentioned on a post here, look likethey belong in a house. Cabin sole looked like a pergo floor from home depot. I remember saying to him " thank God I have an older Bene before the French government got a hold of them and Jeanneau. He looked me straight in the eye and said all our research says this is our price point in the market and this is what they want. So this is the future. It looked like such a piece of junk after I climbed on the Morris. A real masterpiece. Well to each his own, but sometimes we can't pick or choose what we get stuck in out there and if the **** hits the fan weather wise, I would still rather be in my old heavy German Frers design.
We owned a B-36.7 for 4 years and you pretty much nailed the quality of finish on the new boats. The varnish on the toe rails evaporated after just one year. The cheap Ikea interior started delaminating after a few years, latches broke, we noticed that panel colors did not match. Any boat built to a price is going to have its faults. As a former owner I would not take a new beneteau more than a few miles offshore. There are quite a few people who buy them and have a great time with them and I would not try to convince them they made a bad choice. I would challenge those who defend the build/design quality of these boats to sail one long term offshore.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:02   #180
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Re: Went to the Boatshow Today...

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We owned a B-36.7 for 4 years and you pretty much nailed the quality of finish on the new boats. The varnish on the toe rails evaporated after just one year. The cheap Ikea interior started delaminating after a few years, latches broke, we noticed that panel colors did not match. Any boat built to a price is going to have its faults. As a former owner I would not take a new beneteau more than a few miles offshore. There are quite a few people who buy them and have a great time with them and I would not try to convince them they made a bad choice. I would challenge those who defend the build/design quality of these boats to sail one long term offshore.
Maybe you never heard about Giebateau a first 40.7 that is circumnavigating (for many years) with a Dutch family and sailing on high latitudes?





or the several First 36.7 that made the Sidney Hobarth without a problem? ..
I agree about the varnish dough

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