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Old 04-01-2019, 05:07   #76
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Re: welding anchor chain

I have no trouble at all of sleeping nights relying on my welds to keep me safe,
But I can weld,
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Old 15-01-2019, 21:17   #77
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welding anchor chain

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Until you do.

Maybe you simply haven't seen enough weather/load to put it to the test.

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Originally Posted by JC Reefer View Post
Maybe not but I ran the boat for about 5 years with those links and never had an issue.
What the heck am I saying?!

As a younger man I did this and it worked out. Earlier in this thread I wrote about my experience and even (rather shrewdly) defended it. As seen above. I apologize for being so proud. (Simi 60, I’m sorry for being a jerk)

Today me can not in good conscience recommend this. I have actually lost sleep over this past decision. It would only take ONE weak link to ruin someone’s weekend.

Doing it on your own can be done, but today me sees it as an unnecessary risk.

Versus, replacing the chain and not even considering it as possible hole in the safety net.

I’m only human, please forgive.
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Old 15-01-2019, 22:42   #78
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Re: welding anchor chain

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Originally Posted by JB0101 View Post
Sorry for any redundancy from previous posts and length. When it comes to welding, you will get hundreds of opinions. Most from perception and few from experience. On this subject, we are actually concerned with the owner/crew peace of mind as this will only come to fruition if you experience the worst of conditions. I suspect when it comes to chains the first consideration would be low hydrogen followed by tensile strength. As mentioned earlier, rods and wires come in various tensile strengths (one mentioned 7018 which means 70Klbs/sq"). To ease your mind, contact a local welding school, and ask the instructors if you can bring in a sample to be tested for tensile strength. Schools should have capabilities of testing bending and possibly tensile. Discuss with the instructor what your concerns are and the lengths of chain needed for test equipment. Have your welder cut off that length from the chain and have him/her weld the link. Take it to the school and ask the instructor to conduct the tensile test. My money is on the test resulting in the weld holding and the original material giving way. For years I had always heard that a good weld is stronger than the material, which I could never understand until I saw it first hand. Made me a believer. However, the process must be completed exactly each time. Once the weld proves stronger, have welder conduct same process. If failure of weld, seek new welder. Also, my opinion is that the welded link only needs to exceed the capability or your rode, deck fittings, anchor, shackle, and other weak links. I am of the mind, how much chain do you need to clear the bottom? Prior to clearing the bottom, you have chaffing issues, after that, only strength and elasticity are of concern. Chain prevents chaffing, but rode provides shock absorption.
I was once in my past a skilled tradesman and certified welder, but my further education in engineering and manufacturing enhanced my knowledge of metalurgy. Although the weld may be stronger than the material, depending in the filler material used the issue Is not with the weld but the original material.
If the original Chain was a heat treated high tensile strength piece as most are, the issue Is not with the weld, but what the heat generated from the welding process does to weaken the rest of the link. Familiar with the annealing process? Heating a heat treated part significantly can basically completely reverse any strength properties originally given to a high tensile part.
My opinion? Don't do it.
What's the cost of the new chain? What's the boat worth? What's your life worth?
You do the math.
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Old 15-01-2019, 23:22   #79
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Re: welding anchor chain

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Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57 View Post
I was once in my past a skilled tradesman and certified welder, but my further education in engineering and manufacturing enhanced my knowledge of metalurgy. Although the weld may be stronger than the material, depending in the filler material used the issue Is not with the weld but the original material.
If the original Chain was a heat treated high tensile strength piece as most are, the issue Is not with the weld, but what the heat generated from the welding process does to weaken the rest of the link. Familiar with the annealing process? Heating a heat treated part significantly can basically completely reverse any strength properties originally given to a high tensile part.
My opinion? Don't do it.
What's the cost of the new chain? What's the boat worth? What's your life worth?
You do the math.
Let's start off with the fact that HighTest chain is not heat treated, it's alloyed to achieve the higher strength. Higher grades such as 50, 70, 80, 100 and 120 are heat treated and welding will degrade the design strength of THOSE chains. If HighTest/G40/G43 were heat treated they would not be able to hot dip galvanize in the first place.

Actually according to the National Association of Chain Manufacturers welded chain specifications Grade 70 might not be heat treated:
http://www.fehr.com/img/product/desc...ifications.pdf

And you just won the "What's your life worth" award for over the top histrionics. Everything in life involves an assessment of risk. Just because somebody else makes a risk assessment you don't agree with doesn't mean they are indifferent to their boat, their own lives or the lives of their crew. That reaction is tantamount to calling the other person stupid.
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Old 15-01-2019, 23:32   #80
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Re: welding anchor chain

I thought this thread had gone to the place up in the sky of cyberspace where all good threads end up.

I am firmly of the opinion that if you are seeing high enough loads on an anchoring system whereby you feel you need high tensile chain for your boats anchoring system you should probably consider going up a size or two on the chain.

I also suspect that when you weld chain the air quenching the relatively small diameter links experience after welding could restore a considerable portion of it's heat treated strength.
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Old 16-01-2019, 00:23   #81
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Re: welding anchor chain

Quote:
I am firmly of the opinion that if you are seeing high enough loads on an anchoring system whereby you feel you need high tensile chain for your boats anchoring system you should probably consider going up a size or two on the chain.
That's why I've chosen to use somewhat larger chain (10 mm) in plain ol' G30 grade for many years. I like the added weight in the rode, I can use c-links without degrading the chain's strength and I can have it regalvanized to my hearts content.

Has worked for me for a long time.

Jim
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Old 16-01-2019, 05:19   #82
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Re: welding anchor chain

Note: When we’re talking about “heat treated” anchor chain, I believe what we mean is post-weld heat treatment, which only applies to Grades 70(?), 80, & 100.

Welding Procedure for Can-Am Steel Chain
Preheat chain and attachments to 200 deg - 350 deg F before welding. Preheat temperature is effected by many variables, some are thickness of material, geometry of attachment, and chemical composition of steel.
Use a dry 7018 electrode
Always observe proper welding techniques
Note: Cam/CAN-AM CHAINS is not responsible for chain, or attachment failure, or welding defects, when ex-factory welding is the cause of the failure or defect, and that welding has been performed by other than our own factory certified welders.
https://www.can-amchains.com/mainten...ding-procedure

NACM Welded Steel Chain Specifications

Grade 100 Alloy Chain
Premium quality, highest strength alloy chain, heat treated, used in a variety of sling and tie down applications. For overhead lifting applications, only Alloy Chain should be used.

Grade 80 Alloy Chain
Premium quality, high strength alloy chain, heat treated, used in a variety of sling and tie down applications. For overhead lifting applications, only Alloy Chain should be used.

Grade 70 Transport Chain
A high quality, high strength carbon steel chain (MAY be heat treated) used for load securement. Not to be used in overhead lifting.

Grade 43 High Test Chain
A carbon steel chain widely used in industry, construction, agricultural and lumbering operations. Not to be used in overhead lifting.

Grade 30 Proof Coil Chain
General purpose, carbon steel chain. Used in a wide range of applications. Not to be used in overhead lifting

http://www.fehr.com/img/product/desc...ifications.pdf

See also ➥ https://www.sailboat-cruising.com/bbb-anchor-chain.html
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Old 16-01-2019, 05:46   #83
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welding anchor chain

Just to muddle the mix, plain ole 7018 rod has a 70,000 psi tensile strength, same as G70 chain, and stronger than 43 or 30.
If that isn’t strong enough low hydrogen rod is widely available up to at least 110,000 psi. We called it 110M, no idea why though, but it was used in the oil patch in the late 70’s.

Were I to weld a chain, I’d want 3/32” 7018, I can make nice pretty welds with 3/32” 7018.
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Old 16-01-2019, 05:47   #84
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Re: welding anchor chain

I think the OP specifically mentioned BBB chain, which is most definitely not heat treated and most likely cannot be weakened by welding, assuming the weld is good. i.e. high tensile rod such as 7018, no cratering or undercutting, full penetration and a nice bead that can be ground down as needed to fit the wildcat. And it is fairly easy to get a good weld with 7018, a very well behaved and forgiving rod.



It didn't occur to me that G43 might not be heat treated at all. Learn something new every day. Now I know I can weld G43 with a clear conscience if necessary. Nice. Doesn't mean I will ever do it, just that I could if it seemed the only option.
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Old 17-01-2019, 10:10   #85
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Re: welding anchor chain

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A wise position.


^ This
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Old 17-01-2019, 18:39   #86
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Re: welding anchor chain

The op is talking about welding one link in a chain that could be hundreds or thousands of links,
Only the one link is effected, Not the rest of the chain,
The rest of the chain is uneffected by welding one link in it,
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Old 11-02-2019, 21:20   #87
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Re: welding anchor chain

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Welding the chain is a bad idea. I am not a professional welder, but I do a LOT of welding. All kinds of stuff, all the time. But I would NEVER weld my anchor chain.


Get a proper chain link, like leftbrainstuff said.

Where would someone find one of the chain links?
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Old 11-02-2019, 22:28   #88
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Re: welding anchor chain

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Where would someone find one of the chain links?
Your local chandlery or marine supply store. Ask for a connecting link to suit your particular and specified chain.

See, for example, the offering of this marine supplier: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/seafi...04?recordNum=5
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:45   #89
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Re: welding anchor chain

I'm finding this thread very interesting but struggling to understand such diametrically opposed viewpoints. I'm trying to learn here generally about many aspects of cruising but we have people saying yes weld, all the links are welded anyhow, others saying use a $6.99 joiner, some won't trust those...some using stainless joiner? People suggesting that hot dip galvanising will affect the strength of the chain?
Surely a zinc coating bath is only going to be just over 400 deg C, is this really close to an annealing temp?
Speaking to a guy from Muir anchor winches recently he said they don't recommend any of the commercially available chain joiners available here in Aus (and certainly not the stainless type) to run thru an anchor winch gypsy regularly. Out of interest he did suggest that welding a link was the only realistic option.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:34   #90
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Re: welding anchor chain

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Originally Posted by NevilleCat View Post
I'm finding this thread very interesting but struggling to understand such diametrically opposed viewpoints. I'm trying to learn here generally about many aspects of cruising but we have people saying yes weld, all the links are welded anyhow, others saying use a $6.99 joiner, some won't trust those...some using stainless joiner? People suggesting that hot dip galvanising will affect the strength of the chain?
Surely a zinc coating bath is only going to be just over 400 deg C, is this really close to an annealing temp?
Speaking to a guy from Muir anchor winches recently he said they don't recommend any of the commercially available chain joiners available here in Aus (and certainly not the stainless type) to run thru an anchor winch gypsy regularly. Out of interest he did suggest that welding a link was the only realistic option.

If it is not heat treated chain, then annealing is not even an issue. The chain is basically already in its annealed state. So up to like G40 or G43 or whatever, a good weld is not going to weaken the chain. With BBB chain, a good quality C link is stronger than the chain. Maybe not, with G43, but it should be close. And so while I had some nagging doubts and questions initially, I have come to the conclusion that basically it is no big deal either way.



So anyone who is still paranoid, buy a one piece chain and do not join two together. Or use a high test double clevis to join, change it regularly even if it looks sound, and if necessary, manually pass it over the wildcat and down the spillpipe into the chain locker. You may also have to pass it manually when anchoring.



Me, I will be buying a barrel of G43 3/8" and cutting off what doesn't fit in the chain locker with sufficient overhead space. Why not? It will save me having to regularly spray cold galv on welded links or connectors. But I feel kinda reassured that if I had to cut out a section and rejoin it for some reason, or add some on to replace the last hundred feet or so due to wear or rust, it would not de rate my chain by much if at all.
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