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Old 09-11-2011, 16:48   #16
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

I keep hearing that Beneteaus have FLAT BOTTOMS..
I'm sorry, but I dont see it on my Beneteau...Maybe they forgot to put the flat bottom on my boat..
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Old 09-11-2011, 17:50   #17
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

I don't think I've ever seen a flat bottomed sailboat in the boatyard. Maybe that's what full keelers call a boat with a fin keel.
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Old 09-11-2011, 18:02   #18
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A lot of fin keel boats have a flat entry. Unlke the picture of the unflat bene If if the bow turns hard and flattens you get lift but you pound. If it's too fine and narrow no lift wet decks. But you knew that. I wish my peterson flared a tad more above the water line her entry is fine never slams. Not sure if we flared the bow more we would not get more spray though. Pretty happy with the design.
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Old 09-11-2011, 18:33   #19
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

So, what shall we do with the bare fact that seaworthy boats sail like pigs?

b.
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Old 09-11-2011, 18:48   #20
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So, what shall we do with the bare fact that seaworthy boats sail like pigs?

b.
Put LIPSTICK on them........
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Old 09-11-2011, 19:14   #21
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So, what shall we do with the bare fact that seaworthy boats sail like pigs?

b.
flat bottomed sailboats and now I need to be looking out for a sailing pig?
or
does this mean if my boat is seaworthy that I'm a pig?

I thought sailing was going to be fun, not this mental.
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Old 09-11-2011, 19:36   #22
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

Getting back away from the bashing, here's a comment re older designs with high ballast ratios and slack bilges:

For 7 years I owned a Yankee-30... a S&S designed CCA heritage fin keel skeg rudder hull with a fairly narrow beam and ~50% ballast ratio. She was a really sweet boat to sail... would steer herself to windward with the helm free, tracked well off the wind, pointed well, won a lot of races for me in the single handed division of the SF OYRA.
We did numerous trips down to the Channel islands, mostly in dayhops, and still loved her. Then Ann and I sailed her to Hawaii and back, and learned that a boat that sailed at 25 to 30 degrees of heel was really unsuited for long distance voyaging. What had been quite all right for racing and daysailing and even coastal cruising was WAY to fatiguing for longer passages. In other ways she did well, enduring a small named TS on the way out (and posting her best ever days run of 162 miles carrying only a storm jib) and we never felt threatened by lacking "seawothyness". But, boy were we tired when we arrived!

So, when evaluating boats such as the Triton, think about these factors as well as the other ones mentioned by others. Good luck with your decision.

Cheers,

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Old 09-11-2011, 19:43   #23
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So far haven't seen pigs out sailing. I saw a goat once that was doing a RTW solo stint. You might try sailing a corsair f27 if you want fast and seaworthy just understand the compromise.
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Old 09-11-2011, 19:53   #24
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
I keep hearing that Beneteaus have FLAT BOTTOMS..
I'm sorry, but I dont see it on my Beneteau...Maybe they forgot to put the flat bottom on my boat..
The myth of flat-bottomed Beneteau/Hunter/Catalina/Juneau/Et Ceteras is not in any way based upon observation of these boat's bottoms.

It's just how some sailors who own "other" [BLUEWATER, DUDE!] boats justify the fact that they've never been able to average better than four knots on a passage.
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Old 09-11-2011, 19:55   #25
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

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Call it crude, but I trust people and boats who have been there, done that and got home on their own.
Thats includes 1000s of Benes, Jennies, Catalinas etc remember Beneteau build more boats in a day then HR do in 6 months. So theres far more of these crossing oceans then HRs etc

Dave
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Old 09-11-2011, 20:00   #26
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

Here's a link to the latest ARC entry list - lots of Beneteaus Jeanneaus and Bavarias entered.

Entry List for World Cruising Club: ARC
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Old 09-11-2011, 20:33   #27
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

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Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
I apologize for seeking clarity on a boating issue from knowledgeable boaters on a boating forum - how rude of me. Of course, you could simply ignore a thread that so clearly disinterests you, but that would deprive you of an opportunity to sneer condescendingly at us "wannabes".

To everyone else, thanks for the constructive responses. I guess I always assumed the numbers would allow one to compare and contrast different/disparate designs on a purely objective basis. Clearly, there is still a huge subjective component required in interpreting the data.
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Old 09-11-2011, 21:55   #28
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
I apologize for seeking clarity on a boating issue from knowledgeable boaters on a boating forum - how rude of me. Of course, you could simply ignore a thread that so clearly disinterests you, but that would deprive you of an opportunity to sneer condescendingly at us "wannabes".

To everyone else, thanks for the constructive responses. I guess I always assumed the numbers would allow one to compare and contrast different/disparate designs on a purely objective basis. Clearly, there is still a huge subjective component required in interpreting the data.

Spoilsport, y'quit just when it was getting interesting. Hell, we had barely started bashing Hunters!
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Old 09-11-2011, 22:12   #29
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
So all the threads about "blue water" boats vs. "coastal cruisers" got me to looking at some of the ratios that are used to categorize different designs. Specifically, I wanted to compare the Pearson Triton (28.5') with the Pearson Vanguard (32'). As a "control" compare/contrast vessel, I went with the Bristol Channel Cutter (a known, heavy, well-respected, true "blue water" boat).
Comparing the Triton to the BCC which is a touch shorter on deck, the BCC is over twice as heavy, mostly in hull weight, read a lot thicker hull. Given the BCC's full keel vs the Triton's cutaway with overhanging ends, the BCC has a lot more wetted surface area which would give it poor light air performance were it not for the bowsprit and bumpkin that bring the LOA up to 38' vastly increasing the sail area. The BCC's SA/D is 18.5 and will decrease a lot less for the same amount of gear placed on the boat. The Triton's SA/D is pretty good at 16.5 and the Aeromarine version is even better at 17.
Comparing the Vanguard and the BCC, the Vanguard is 3000lb lighter, all hull weight despite being 4.5' longer. The Vanguard's SA/D is lower than the Triton's at 16.

When people have asked for good "blue water" designs in the 30' range (and low budget), people seem quick to recommend the Pearson Triton, but they almost always dismiss the Vanguard as a "coastal cruiser". But their numbers (when plugged into the different ratios) are almost identical across the board. What gives?
Probably it is the comparison to what else is available:
The alternatives to the Triton are the VEGA 27 (ALBIN) and maybe one or two others that I can't think of.
The alternatives to the Vanguard include the Westsail 32, Allied Luders 33, the Seawind, Bristol 32, Chesapeke 32, Contessa 32. Although some of these are significantly more expensive, numbers-wise the Vanguard kind of falls in the middle of the pack and suffers in people's perceptions.
The other reason the Triton is more reccommended is that it is a $6-10k boat vs $15-20k for the Vanguard and being a smaller boat would be cheaper to outfit and upgrade. The Triton is OK for a couple, and the Vanguard would be fine, but really doesn't have a terrible lot more amenities.

Then I noticed that even though the Vanguard (and all those old CCA designs) are typically called "tender", the Ballast/Displacement ratios of both the Triton and the Vanguard are actually higher than that of the BCC which implies that they are "stiffer"/more resistant to heeling. How can that be?
The BCC is wider than the other 2 boats, so it is going to have better inital stability (what people generally call stiff). Given its really high weight it is going to have a really high roll moment of inertia, a key component of capsize resistance. The Triton and Vanguard should have plenty good roll resistance but the BCC will be better. Being a classic full keel boat rather than a cutaway full keel is will have somewhat better roll damping, another capsize resistance factor. I would not speculate on the AVS for any of these boats or how they would compare.
All of these boats have been round the world and I personally would consider them 'Blue Water', but the BCC is built tougher, and has better sail area for it's size and weight so it will perform better.

VANGUARD 33 (PEARSON)
TRITON (PEARSON)
TRITON (AEROMARINE)
BRISTOL CHANNEL CUTTER
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Old 09-11-2011, 22:14   #30
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Re: Understanding the Ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So, what shall we do with the bare fact that seaworthy boats sail like pigs?

b.
Have you ever sailed a Bristol Channel Cutter?
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