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Old 30-12-2011, 12:55   #76
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Re: Two Anchors ?

How long were they at 2 anchors. Was it just for the storm or was it a tad over a few days? I could post pictures of boats dragging moorings.That does not mean a mooring is bad. several factors went into the failure. Both boats have there jibs up at least one appears to have its dodger and scraps of sail at the forestay and a full main is exposed on the other. Lots of windage for a hurricane. Having done nothing to prepare I suspect they had crap for gear no chafe protection etc.....I have done a few hurricanes and always laid out anchors with killett. never snarled them up. Didnt go beach side. I agree that mostly 1 good anchor and gear is best. sometimes most times. Still stand by sticking my anchors way out right before a hurricane. If I were knowingly going to swing circles that would be a problem. When I have done this it has not happened.
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:05   #77
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
How much proof do you need? MaineSail just posted a pretty convincing picture, but let me add one anyway; both had two anchors out... just some pieces of rope/chain bungling from the decks now:


It's fine that you have decided that your anchor is just fine when you add a second anchor to help it. But please stop saying that it outperforms a single anchor that is sized correctly because failures like the pics posted here now are not outperforming the boats that just stay put with their correctly size single anchors. And it will happen to you too, one will drag and take the other out too (by fouling it). It is only a matter of time.

cheers,
Nick.
Nick,

These are sometimes the folks who pull into an anchorage where EVERY boat there is swinging to one anchor and insist on dropping a stern hook or Bahamian set for absolutely no necessary reason. They then wonder why everyone is so close them them after the wind shift and blame it on everyone else... My buddy Andy comes to mind.. Hope he's not reading this...

I can count on one hand the number of times I've "needed" to do a two anchor set in 40 years of sailing & boating.

I watch very closely the boats that go ashore here in Maine every year. I check for anchor type, ask about scope, how many anchors out, rode type etc. etc.. I am often there helping to kedge someone off...

Two anchor sets are out numbered here in Maine & the Maritimes by at least 50:1 and yet I have seen quite a few two anchor set boats go ashore and many more nearly do so after the two rodes twisted up and one anchor fouled the other.

Perhaps Seahunter can educate us as to how to prevent a rode tangle/twist with multiple 360 swings per day, varying winds in the same day from zero to 30+ knots, and 10-25 foot tides.?

I've seen folks from down South who "do this all the time and NEVER had a tangle" foul so bad in Maine that they are cussing and swearing up a storm...

The funniest was when my buddy from down South, cruising Maine, was going to show me "how it's done" with a two anchor set. He preferred this and "never tangled"... He'd done it that way for 15 years and claimed to have "never once dragged"...... I tried to explain swinging in small coves and etiquette but he would hear none of it.

As usual I stuck with my single anchor even though winds were predicted to hit 40 knots. They only hit 25.. By 3:00 am he was tangled tight and began dragging. Headlamps, dinghys and a third anchor solved that one while the other two were untangled. He used two anchors because, as you mentioned, he'd dragged his primary CQR so many times that he just felt more comfortable on two..

He now has a bigger new gen primary and uses it alone after than debacle.. The funny thing was this was after four nights of anchoring with them and every morning he'd say see we didn't move and I'd say neither did we and I was enjoying the sunset & cocktails while you were futzing with your ground tackle..... I'd then point to his bow and say umm your snubbers are twisted together..... For four days he kept ribbing us on his "preferred" two anchor gig despite twice being lambasted by other cruisers for not "swinging with the rest of the cove after being last one to arrive".. On the fifth night after the 3:00 am debacle he was awfully quiet...

P.S I think I know that place...
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:13   #78
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Re: Two Anchors ?

Also looking at maine sails track I can not tell but it appears that he had 3 tracks leading to or exiting the anchorage. This would give additional tracking not from swinging while at anchor. how much was recorded on that visit? How long was the stay? did he drag anchor? There is information missing from the data. Main sail usually is very thorough and I am sure will provide us with the missing information. during our last storm here I rowed about the anchoraged and was surpised at the number of anchors that were hanging on the mooring pendants. I shot footage so my neighbor could see what his boat did. His boat would sail forward swing the pendant would hook the anchor and fall back. Looking at those shots from Jedi the further boat lost its lines above the water line. The close boat has jib sheets in the water and maybe an anchor rhode. What failed here? It is not good science to say it was 2 anchors with out better information.
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:18   #79
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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However, all available documentation shows that 2 anchors are in fact better than one.
OK so show us this "documentation" that shows 2 anchors are better than one. Who published it? How was this documentation tested & vetted? What were the controls to base the documentation on? Was this documentation before new gen anchors or after? What was the n. of the sample size?

I'd personally love to see the "documentation"...

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Granted employing two anchors take a certain skill set, like operating two engines, or sailing with multiple masts that many people find difficult to fathom or grasp. The failure of a 2 anchor set is more likely an example of ineptitude or failure of the /USR.
Like Moitessier...?

Please do educate us on just how "inept" we are. Please explain for the rest of us "inept" sailors the fool proof method for 10-25 foot tides, multiple 360 degree swings per day and winds that can range from zero to 30+ knots.....

The detailed written instructions that show us how to do a two anchor set with zero tangles, ever, would be greatly appreciated! Info on how to avoid "swing" issues when you're the only boat on two anchors would be good too. This "inept" sailor welcomes your education trainings...
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:20   #80
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Re: Two Anchors ?

We carry our 30kg Bruce on the bow roller (connected to 350' of 3/8" Hi-Test chain) while our second 20kg Bruce (connected to 50' of 3/8" Hi-Test chain and 150' of 1" Mega-Braid rode) sits in the anchor locker. Other than the rare times we've had to bow-and-stern anchor (eg, Traitor's Bay on Hiva Oa in the Marquesas because there were too many boats in too small an anchorage) or Taiohae Bay on Nuku Hiva (big southerly swell comes into the bay with easterly Trade Winds), we have never deployed two anchors simultaneously. EXCEPT when we were in Pago Pago, American Samoa, where the bottom of the bay is so foul that our usually-trusty Bruce wouldn't hold. After dragging and resetting more times than I care to count, I dug out the 20kg Bruce and it's chain and shackled the chain and anchor to our 30kg Bruce. This gave me a 20kg Bruce, 50' of 3/8" Hi-Test, a 30kg Bruce and a high scope ratio of even more 3/8" Hi-Test chain. Yet, with our engine in reverse at 1,700 RPM, I could still drag both anchors. Since the wind never got over 30 knots, we held ok but I still felt uneasy.

The problem occurred when we went to pull up the second anchor as I didn't put a float on the 20kg Bruce. If I had put a float with some relatively heavy line, I could have pulled the smaller Bruce up with that. Instead, I had to launch the dinghy - which had been stowed in preparation for a blue-water passage. At least we provided some entertainment for our friends anchored nearby.

Fair winds and calm seas.
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:32   #81
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
On the fifth night after the 3:00 am debacle he was awfully quiet...

P.S I think I know that place...
Yes, it often needs to come to a crisis or worse (we had to arrange emergency transport to hospital for a cruiser because of heart trouble with all the excitement with dragging once... all for having an inadequate anchor!) before people start believing those who've seen this again and again.

Yes, that's the place we were a couple of bays further on (Mt Hartman) and did well.
This is spooky... I have the same photo:


cheers,
Nick.
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:35   #82
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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Also looking at maine sails track I can not tell but it appears that he had 3 tracks leading to or exiting the anchorage.
We always survey the anchorage for swing room, depth, lobster pots etc. etc. often we come in under sail and then are putting it away and make a few passes before picking our spot and setting hook.. Those shots are at the 50ft and 20ft over zoom range. No draggings, have not dragged since getting our first Spade back in the late 90's. During wind or tide shifts we are often becalmed. The wind often comes back from another direction but in the mean time you meander around your swing circle in a 360 degree manner or close to it..

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This would give additional tracking not from swinging while at anchor.
Yep a few of those lines are entering, leaving or surveying. The point was the 360 radius we have here so often. With 10-25 foot tides, current and winds that go light than come back up from another direction 360's are just part of anchoring up here.


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how much was recorded on that visit? How long was the stay? did he drag anchor? There is information missing from the data.
Those are all over night anchorings. Sometimes we come early & stay later or come late leave early but those represent one night stints.
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Old 30-12-2011, 13:59   #83
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
We always survey the anchorage for swing room, depth, lobster pots etc. etc. often we come in under sail and then are putting it away and make a few passes before picking our spot and setting hook.. Those shots are at the 50ft and 20ft over zoom range. No draggings, have not dragged since getting our first Spade back in the late 90's. During wind or tide shifts we are often becalmed. The wind often comes back from another direction but in the mean time you meander around your swing circle in a 360 degree manner or close to it..
My point was not all the lines on the gps are you swinging at anchor. I generally agree with your position. I am afraid this is I will always use one anchor trenching and bag the other times.


Yep a few of those lines are entering, leaving or surveying. The point was the 360 radius we have here so often. With 10-25 foot tides, current and winds that go light than come back up from another direction 360's are just part of anchoring up here. Thanks for clarifying.
My argument is what appears may not be conclusive like showing shots of boats on a beach that had 2 anchors or 2 jib sheets in the water. somethin failed there. I could give shots of my multiple anchors and a shot of a beached single moored boat
. Had I thought of it I could have screen captured the relatively slow rotation anchored here on the Chesapeake.That means nothing without the context. Different area and circumstance that cannot be applied universally. Still with 99% one Anchor but disagree with the data of beached boats and 2 anchors as proof that 2 anchors are bad in a named storm.




Those are all over night anchorings. Sometimes we come early & stay later or come late leave early but those represent one night stints.
You have the best and informative web site I have seen since i put 2 anchors over.
Thanks and enjoy
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Old 30-12-2011, 14:04   #84
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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The detailed written instructions that show us how to do a two anchor set with zero tangles, ever, would be greatly appreciated! Info on how to avoid "swing" issues when you're the only boat on two anchors would be good too. This "inept" sailor welcomes your education trainings...
A two anchor set can very messy, particularly if the boat drags. Unfortunately the most common reason for using two anchors in a routine anchoring situation seems to be a history of poor holding.
This professional crew might be able to give some tips on untangling two anchors. After 4 hours they gave up and motored slowly home
.
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Old 30-12-2011, 14:17   #85
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Re: Two Anchors ?

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Still with 99% one Anchor but disagree with the data of beached boats and 2 anchors as proof that 2 anchors are bad in a named storm.
I agree. Being in a named storm falls in that 1% rule and I already posted a very good way to use multiple anchors for that. But often there are even better options, like mangroves, moving out of the path of the storm etc.

The two boats I posted... the outside one is a Centurion 47 of friends of ours. It was anchored a couple hundred yards away from this spot with two anchors. What you see are pieces of snubber. The anchors + chains all went overboard because there was no chain stopper when the snubbers chafed through.

The photo's are a bit silly I agree but there were calls for proof and at least they make people think about it a bit. Let me post a happier photo of Jedi during a 50 knot blow in Aruba behind her single anchor having zero problems


ciao!
Nick.
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