True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

I'm not saying anything is wrong with boat designs today. But if someone, such as a salesperson or broker or owner trying to sell the boat, says about a boat built to something like design category C, "This is an open-ocean passage maker," that IS wrong and can have catastrophic results.

There seems to be a lot of claims that if one boat of a particular design makes a long open-ocean passage that all boats of that design can do the same. That's like saying "The owner of this barrel survived Niagara Falls. It's Niagara Falls proven."

Well, anyone who's listening to salesperson's (or broker's or owner's) BS to decide what any given boat is good for, gets what he deserves! Naturally, it's up to us to figure this out.

[sailorboy1]

[QUOTE=Julie Mor;1756277
There seems to be a lot of claims that if one boat of a particular design makes a long open-ocean passage that all boats of that design can do the same. [/QUOTE]

Really, can you quote them to us because I don't recall that.

But it is easy to find the opposite where because a boat can not then all can not. Just the use of a manufacturer name as a "type" proves that.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Really, can you quote them to us because I don't recall that.

But it is easy to find the opposite where because a boat can not then all can not. Just the use of a manufacturer name as a "type" proves that.

Seems to me that a certain Hunter 49 that circumnavigated via the capes is used to prove that Hunters (in general) are "BWBs" by one of our prolific posters.

I don't care much for any generic qualifications, ie that "X" brand yachts are good or bad or awful, for just about every marque has had some variation in both design and build quality. Personally I have shied away from mass produced boats for my own voyaging, but I've shared anchorages with so many of such boats that I certainly know that they can and do make long passages and cruise successfully... and hardly any of them have full keels and attached rudders.

Jim

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Seems to me that a certain Hunter 49 that circumnavigated via the capes is used to prove that Hunters (in general) are "BWBs" by one of our prolific posters.

And ONE person always talking about ONE boat is just as meaningless as using a problem with ONE boat to trash a whole line. But I was asking about the "lot of claims"

But I would expect a Hunter 49 to pretty go anywhere any other boat could.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Seems to me that a certain Hunter 49 that circumnavigated via the capes is used to prove that Hunters (in general) are "BWBs" by one of our prolific posters.
Jim

If you are talking about the one I am thinking off it didn't circumnavigate and it daysailed Cape Horn from P Williams. Also port hopped down and then up the SA Coast.... not that port hopping down the west coast of SA isn't a bit of a feat in itself.
El Ping

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Seems to me that a certain Hunter 49 that circumnavigated via the capes is used to prove that Hunters (in general) are "BWBs" by one of our prolific posters.

I don't care much for any generic qualifications, ie that "X" brand yachts are good or bad or awful, for just about every marque has had some variation in both design and build quality. Personally I have shied away from mass produced boats for my own voyaging, but I've shared anchorages with so many of such boats that I certainly know that they can and do make long passages and cruise successfully... and hardly any of them have full keels and attached rudders.

Jim

Jim, as El Pinguono said that Hunter 49 only circ South America and the Faulklands. \

cheers

[Jim Cate]

Hmm... seems that I was wrong about the Hunter 49 claim... sorry 'bout that! But, IIRC that voyage still was used to "prove" that Hunters in general were BWB. That's water under the bridge now. Every one needs to decide for themselves whether a given boat is suited to some specific task. Internet wisdom, even from CF, is not sufficient to make that decision!

Jim

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes I agree that this concept has nothing to do with the Dashews concept but you give the idea that the Dashew concept is a more easily driven boat, I mean for a solo sailor or a couple and that is not true. If that was the case solo open racers would follow that concept. In fact it was tried several times, I mean narrower boats kind of Dashew concept and it failed every time: They were slower and more difficult to sail do to a bigger heel angle, less overall stability (a stable platform) and more roll downwind.



Off course I do not mean in all circumstances, I mean circumnavigation races and transats. On a circumnavigation against the prevailing winds the Dashew type of hull would have advantages and that’s why the boat that has the record time of that particular circumnavigation has an hull more close to the Dashew’s boats than to the Open racers (even so more beamier than Dashew's boats).

The solo open racer’s type of hull is just more polyvalent and better on most types of sailing and occasions. After all cruisers that circumnavigate and cross oceans follow the trade winds, don’t go deliberately against them.

Dashew's designs were narrow to be easily driven and were meant to be couple boats. They have short rigs as the hull doesn't need a lot to drive it, at a cost of less than ideal light air performance. They were definitely not optimized for upwind performance - not with 6 1/2 feet of draft and a short rig for their size. Now with an 8' keel with the weight low and a much taller rig upwind performance would be much improved.

The Deerfoot 62 shown above is one of Dashew's earlier designs. The more common are the Sundeer 60's and 64's, which were a production run built by Tillotson-Pearson.

Overall Dashew's designs probable have more ocean miles per boat than any other design class out there.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Dashew's designs were narrow to be easily driven and were meant to be couple boats. They have short rigs as the hull doesn't need a lot to drive it, at a cost of less than ideal light air performance. They were definitely not optimized for upwind performance - not with 6 1/2 feet of draft and a short rig for their size. Now with an 8' keel with the weight low and a much taller rig upwind performance would be much improved.

The Deerfoot 62 shown above is one of Dashew's earlier designs. The more common are the Sundeer 60's and 64's, which were a production run built by Tillotson-Pearson.

Overall Dashew's designs probable have more ocean miles per boat than any other design class out there.

The hull type favors upwind sailing in detriment of downwind sailing. Probably they have not more ocean miles per boat than other voyage boats like Amel, Boreal or OVNI. Once drunk some beers with a guy that had circumnavigated 3 times with the same OVNI.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Polux

The hull type favors upwind sailing in detriment of downwind sailing. Probably they have not more ocean miles per boat than other voyage boats like Amel, Boreal or OVNI. Once drunk some beers with a guy that had circumnavigated 3 times with the same OVNI.

The Dashew boats were built to be good motor boats as well. It's a different trade off compared to solo round the world racers, which can't use engines.
If you plan on motoring through light wind, or when going upwind the ideal boat does become a different one...



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[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

The Dashew boats were built to be good motor boats as well. It's a different trade off compared to solo round the world racers, which can't use engines.
If you plan on motoring through light wind, or when going upwind the ideal boat does become a different one...

Some misanderstanding here, I was not comparing the Dashew boats with solo racers but with Yachts that have the hulls influenced by that concept. If we take in account size, I would say comparing the Dashew yachts with for instance Shipman yachts:









I agree that in what regarding motoring the Dashew boats have an advantage even if boats like Shipman have a very powerful engine. Anyway the Dashew boats ended up to finish as motorboats so you may have some reason there.

[Polux]

And finally I had some time to answer this interesting point:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.. Racing across oceans and cruising short handed across oceans are completely different things. This or that quality which makes a boat good for the former may be entirely irrelevant to the latter.
...

Yes I agree that racing across oceans solo or short handed and cruising are completely different things but the point is: Is the type of hull that allows a solo sailor to push and sail fast (many times under autopilot) a racer trough oceans has advantages for a an inexperienced, solo or short crew while cruising oceans?

It seems to me that the answer is obvious since what makes a solo racer offshore hull different from the hull of offshore crew racers is not the ability to go faster in absolute terms (quite the contrary) but to go faster while sailed by a solo sailor. That means and easier to sail, easier exploitable safer boat that nonetheless has a very good sailing performance.

These are essential qualities in what regards cruising boats that most of the times are sailed with short crews and many times relatively inexperienced sailors. For them an easy safe boat that can sail well is a top priority and that's why most cruising hulls are today based on the solo racer's hull concept and for the same reason: Easier and safer boats that sail well, boats with a bigger overall stability, stable platforms that sail with little heel, boats with a superior directional stability, more forgiving and easier to be autopilot driven, boats that roll less downwind or on an anchorage.

On my blog, on the last post, I developed much more the subject explaining in detail the advantages and disadvantages of this type of hulls in what regards racing and cruising.

[oregonian]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

... and hardly any of them have full keels and attached rudders.

Jim

hmmm! the last time I stopped by Aitutaki there were two Westsail 32's, two Island Packets and a German steel full keeler. Thats five full keels and five attached rudders out of five boats. Must have just been one of those weird rare coincidences huh Jim?

[a64pilot]

Actually the Island Packets have spade rudders, but they are very well protected spades


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[oregonian]

a64pilot, My error, thanks for the correction. Yes, the IP rudders are certainly well protected. So that is 5 full keels, and 3 attached rudders of the 5 boats.