True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Crosis

This is why I will never be on board with todays cruisers. No boat short of a cruise liner needs 75k in refit and upgrades. If you need all that expensive crap to sail then you have no business being on the water. That boat just came back from circumnavigation without those refits and upgrades so why would it need them now? It only needs them for a landlubber who should keep his feet on the hard. The most it would need is a new set of sails (8k, not 30k) and a bottom job with a few thru-hulls replaced. Sure you CAN refit and upgrade to the tune of 75k but to say it would need it is laughable.

OK, add standing and running rigging, new sails, rewire the mast, new mast step, new chainplates and possibly new water and fuel tanks, an engine overhaul, and your at a pretty high number, higher than you may think, depending on boat design of course

[wellin]

We all have a choice. Complain about the type of boats out there or being manufactured. Or go build your own BW boat and stop complaining.

Sent from my SCH-I415 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[wellin]

Same thing happenes with radio control model airplanes. Back. In the day everyone built the plane themselves. Now people just go to the store and complain about the poor selection. While us serious modelers still scratch build so we can have the best possible plane to fly.

Sent from my SCH-I415 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Crosis

This is why I will never be on board with todays cruisers. No boat short of a cruise liner needs 75k in refit and upgrades. If you need all that expensive crap to sail then you have no business being on the water. That boat just came back from circumnavigation without those refits and upgrades so why would it need them now? It only needs them for a landlubber who should keep his feet on the hard. The most it would need is a new set of sails (8k, not 30k) and a bottom job with a few thru-hulls replaced. Sure you CAN refit and upgrade to the tune of 75k but to say it would need it is laughable.

That boat definitely needed various fixes and upgrades. But overall it was strong and reasonably well maintained. The reason it went to an auction block was the financial insolvency of the owner as he was not around much to govern his affairs during the downturn (he was circumnavigating much of the time). There were issues with the rudder, genset, engine, electronics being late 90s, old sails, etc. I quoted $50-75K for refit assuming boatyard rates and new sails, etc. The guy I was representing at the auction is a marine pro who probably would DIY all of that and his estimate was $25-50K mostly for parts/supplies/yard fees and labor of helpers. He definitely would not have been buying sails new but would've looked for a used set. And the spread in his estimate was mostly due to his not knowing if the boat needed a new coat of Awlgrip.

Of course had this boat been bought by those Aussie guys on ebay they would have thrown an EPIRB in the salon and took off keeping their "fix-it" budget low. But I'm talking more like making her a cream puff.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by wellin

We all have a choise. Complain about the type of boats out there or being manufactured. Or go build your own BW boat and stop complaining.
..

I don't even understand the complaint. Boats are always compromises and each compromise works better on a given sets of circumstances, not meaning that don't work on others, just not maximized for it but from there to saying this:

Originally Posted by JulieMac

....
Have most boat builders acknowledged that to survive in today's marketplace means designing their boats for 7 day charters in fair weather conditions? That fewer people today choose to cross oceans, but are permanent members of the 'jet set'?

Does not seem to make much sense to me. The vast majority of boats sold are not destined to the charter market and even the ones that are an option on that market (by their good relation price/quality) sell much more out of that market then into it. Boats for the charter market are adapted from boat main market sailboats (and not the other way around), with more berths, heads and so on. Some of those boats circumnavigate or sail extensively with new owners after having served its useful life time as charter boats.

That's true that the typical main market sailing boat is not maximized for passage making simply because their owners will rarely use it that way, but mostly cruising on the Mediterranean or Caribbean, even if for that they have to do some ocean passages. The boats are used 90% of the time cruising on the cruising grounds and enjoying life on anchorages or marinas so that is obviously the main design criteria: making a boat enjoyable on those conditions.

Regarding the few that like more to voyage than to cruise and pass more time sailing oceans than on cruising grounds the offer on the market has been increasing on the last years (not diminishing) to the point that on the European Boat of the year contest they felt the need to create a category for those boats. Only last year 5 brand new models come to light (Garcia 45, Boreal 52, Rapier 550, Southerly 535 and OVNI 52) and this year more will come to the market, joining the many that are there already.

Originally Posted by wellin

Hulls are getting flatter, beamier and lighter. Fewer handholds are to be found, while fin keels and spade rudders have replaced full keels and skegs.

You talk about this as if it had something to do with a boat being designed for bluewater voyaging. It hasn't. It has to do with boat design evolution and with better, faster and more stable sailboats. Also more comfortable in most sailing positions and conditions, sailing with much less heel and rolling much less downwind.

[boatsmith]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

That boat definitely needed various fixes and upgrades. But overall it was strong and reasonably well maintained. The reason it went to an auction block was the financial insolvency of the owner as he was not around much to govern his affairs during the downturn (he was circumnavigating much of the time). There were issues with the rudder, genset, engine, electronics being late 90s, old sails, etc. I quoted $50-75K for refit assuming boatyard rates and new sails, etc. The guy I was representing at the auction is a marine pro who probably would DIY all of that and his estimate was $25-50K mostly for parts/supplies/yard fees and labor of helpers. He definitely would not have been buying sails new but would've looked for a used set. And the spread in his estimate was mostly due to his not knowing if the boat needed a new coat of Awlgrip.

Of course had this boat been bought by those Aussie guys on ebay they would have thrown an EPIRB in the salon and took off keeping their "fix-it" budget low. But I'm talking more like making her a cream puff.

that is an unreasonable price to refit that boat. you would spend that much not counting labor to be "creampuff". Those numbers are from lalaland.
'

[a64pilot]

See I'm thinking by the time its all said and done, I'll have close to 50K into my re-fit.
"stuff" adds up, I bet most have spent more on their boats than they realize.
You put numbers to the following and see what you come up with
1. new sails
2. new rigging
3. Dinghy and motor
4. Davits
5. electronics (all that there was was an old non DSC VHF) I want HF, RADAR and AIS
6. autopilot
7. new refrigeration
8. watermaker
9 windlass
10. ground tackle
11. Solar
12. chain plates
13. tanks (fuel and water) seem to be in good shape, but they are aluminum and 27 yrs old
14. generator (not essential, but desired)
15. liferaft

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Crosis

This is why I will never be on board with todays cruisers. No boat short of a cruise liner needs 75k in refit and upgrades. If you need all that expensive crap to sail then you have no business being on the water. That boat just came back from circumnavigation without those refits and upgrades so why would it need them now? It only needs them for a landlubber who should keep his feet on the hard. The most it would need is a new set of sails (8k, not 30k) and a bottom job with a few thru-hulls replaced. Sure you CAN refit and upgrade to the tune of 75k but to say it would need it is laughable.

You're probably right if you want to live in a pile of crap, eat out of a can, and stink from not bathing..
Like everything, systems have a life, and after a number of years on the water, these systems need replacing..
If you're camping, then you are right, but if you are living and cruising on you're boat as a home, you're wrong........ we estimate our refit at about 40k..

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by boatsmith

that is an unreasonable price to refit that boat. you would spend that much not counting labor to be "creampuff". Those numbers are from lalaland.
'

Not really. The numbers are from a guy who is a marine pro with 40 years of experience and last 20-25 years as a liveaboard on his various boats. And who completed 2 circumnavs. And he's aware of the fact that most boat owners are paying many, many time more than what it would cost him to do.

Heck, I have witnessed this discreprancy myself when my mooring neighbor proudly mentioned to us that he "only" paid $800 for his new alternator, incl. installation when the yard wanted $1,200. And he would highly recommend that installer to us if needed. 3 years later when I needed a new alternator I got a brand new one on ebay for $70 and installed it in 20 minutes for the cost of a bottle of good tequila to a friend who helped me.

Yes, I understand that when I'll be departing for BW I'll probably change the alternator to a most robust model (or may be not) and keep this one as an emergency spare but it sure won't be at a cost of $800. And that probably can be said of EVERY item on any to do list.

[oldragbaggers]

Originally Posted by carstenb

This is an argument(discussion) that no one will win.

I think that anyone that has a boat that they like, trust, can afford and operate, wins. Whether or not anyone else likes it should be totally irrelevant.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

You're probably right if you want to live in a pile of crap, eat out of a can, and stink from not bathing..
Like everything, systems have a life, and after a number of years on the water, these systems need replacing..
If you're camping, then you are right, but if you are living and cruising on you're boat as a home, you're wrong........ we estimate our refit at about 40k..

And if you add some pressing issues on that boat such as rudder work, etc., $50K is not unreasonable. The other $25 would have been for an Awligrip (if needed) as my friend was looking at that boat from a resale point of view. Basically our hope was to pick it up for $100K or less, put in it $50K or less, and put it back on the market for $250K and take the first $200K+ offer leaving $30-50K profit for his cruising kitty. Or if not sold quickly, he would take her RTW himself and would sell his then current boat.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Yet aircraft are safer than ever before...

It's the same everywhere: Modern materials and engineering allow things that weren't though possible before. Like making air planes out of composites, or glueing aluminium. (There's a boat out there that's build of aluminium extrusions glued together...)
If done properly this leads to better products.

Comparison to aircraft for safety is of limited value, flying is probably the most regulated activities the bulk of the population comes into contact with whereas boating is almost unregulated in the US and only somewhat regulated in Europe.

The increased safety of air travel is much more related to improved procedures in maintenance and aircraft handling than to construction technology.

The two places improving tech have significantly improved aviation safety are navigation improvements (GPS) and weather reporting and forecasting.

Unfortunately a lot of the cockpit automation tech that is improving efficiency in airline transport is also having the effect of degrading pilots basic flying skills which vastly increases the danger to passengers when automation fails.


Adelie

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Adelie

The increased safety of air travel is much more related to improved procedures in maintenance and aircraft handling than to construction technology.

There was a time when aircraft came apart in the air because materials were not that well understood yet. My point is that improved knowledge of the properties of materials, and improved design methods means that one should not automatically equate "lighter" with "less strong". And aviation does illustrate that.

[bcboomer]

Has anyone else been following these guys?

Adventure 40 Progress Report

Their aim is to have a production run of true "blue water" boats that are affordable. Big challenge but lots of talent and experience being thrown at it.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

See I'm thinking by the time its all said and done, I'll have close to 50K into my re-fit.
"stuff" adds up, I bet most have spent more on their boats than they realize.
You put numbers to the following and see what you come up with
1. new sails
2. new rigging
3. Dinghy and motor
4. Davits
5. electronics (all that there was was an old non DSC VHF) I want HF, RADAR and AIS
6. autopilot
7. new refrigeration
8. watermaker
9 windlass
10. ground tackle
11. Solar
12. chain plates
13. tanks (fuel and water) seem to be in good shape, but they are aluminum and 27 yrs old
14. generator (not essential, but desired)
15. liferaft

If you need all that expensive crap to sail then you have no business being on the water.

Or so I have heard…

Mark