True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

[JulieMac]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Offshore cruisers make up less than 1% of the market so its a niche market at best. The entry level boats seem to serve the other 99% just fine. There are many cruisers in the Caribbean, Mexico and the Med that don't need tough offshore boats as the entry level production boats do just fine in these areas. Actually the cockpits and layouts below also work well for these cruising areas as well. The builders are giving the buyers exactly what they want, big affordable space that still sails well in most cases.

You make my point. If the offshore market is 1% or 3%, then finding an affordable BWB less than 25 years old will disappear. If not now, then in a decade.

Maybe the big story here is the vanishing offshore market.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by colemj

Oyster, Swan, HR, and many others are now building high-quality boats that are sturdy and do not cut corners.

However, they are no longer building boats that fit the OP's criteria of "blue water" designs.

Mark

I've heard that newish Swans often have issues which the older ones rarerly had. But even if they're still building quality boats, at those prices, for most average cruiser, their quality is irrelevant as the costs are more than prohibitive for ownership of new. I was talking more in the vicinity of $300-500K which seems to be the most popular range for the buyers of new boats marketed today as BW.

The only one I can think of that's even remotely can be calle BW is the IP but even they have their issues which make them less than suitable as BW boat, such as not having a windlass as a standard feature. I can understand not having a TV or some such, but to lack a windlass on a half a mil supposedly BW boat? Seriously?

[colemj]

I very much doubt that market has ever been more than 1-3%. In fact, I would bet a dollar it is larger now than it has ever been.

Again, you have a very specific and narrow opinion of what makes a BWB design. This opinion is no longer shared by most - particularly those higher-end companies designing and building BWBs.

So while you will certainly have problems finding your BWB, most others will not.

Mark

[JulieMac]

Originally Posted by colemj

Oyster, Swan, HR, and many others are now building high-quality boats that are sturdy and do not cut corners.

However, they are no longer building boats that fit the OP's criteria of "blue water" designs.

Mark

Admittedly, they have largely replaced the skeg rudder with a spade or "skegette". Ports and windows have been enlarged.

You will still find fuel tanks in excess of 100+ gal, and plenty of handholds, however. GRP layup, deck tabbing and strong hull support structures exceed the standards found acceptable by the likes of the large French & German builders.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by carstenb

+1

Lots and lots of "non BW" boats out there circumnavigating without any problems whatsoever.

Time and technology have moved on - get with it.

A lot of things are "fine" .......until there's a problem.
Rebel heart, boats with broken off keels, carbon composite boats that break in half...recent cat capsizes and others can attest to that.
It's just about where each of us draws the line..... redundancy wise.

Would most prefer to fly in an airliner with 3:1 safety engineering or 1:1?

"Who ever suggested heavy displacement as the best offshore boats?? "
My impression it isn't heavy that's often wanted but strength. Heavy often = strength in boating.

Should the Coast Guard use cored fiberglass for their icebreakers or steel?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I've heard that newish Swans often have issues which the older ones rarerly had. But even if they're still building quality boats, at those prices, for most average cruiser, their quality is irrelevant as the costs are more than prohibitive for ownership of new. I was talking more in the vicinity of $300-500K which seems to be the most popular range for the buyers of new boats marketed today as BW.

The only one I can think of that's even remotely can be calle BW is the IP but even they have their issues which make them less than suitable as BW boat, such as not having a windlass as a standard feature. I can understand not having a TV or some such, but to lack a windlass on a half a mil supposedly BW boat? Seriously?

I'm not sure Swan, HR, Oyster, etc ever made boats in the mid-class price range. Maybe HR at the lower end of their size range back then. Keep in mind your $300,000 was less than $70,000 in 1975.

Your argument would have been just as true back in the 70's. Anybody buy a new "BWB" boat back in the 1970's? If so, what was a good price?

I don't think a lack of a windlass as a standard base-feature rules out a BWB. Some base-feature boats don't even come with sails! Nobody buys a base-feature boat of any type and expects it to be RTW sail-away.

Mark

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by JulieMac

You make my point. If the offshore market is 1% or 3%, then finding an affordable BWB less than 25 years old will disappear. If not now, then in a decade.

Maybe the big story here is the vanishing offshore market.

Bingo! But I'd turn it upside down and say that it is not the market that vanishes but the sailors who are willing to go offshore for extended periods of time. Since the 60s when Pardeys and others showed the world that one does not need a fancy yacht to circumnavigate the offshore crowd was growing with more and more people taking off in what passed for an average well built boat. Today the trend is in the opposite direction - charter few times a year or putz around the near shore 10% of the time while having dockside sundowners 90% of the time.

Most BW sailors I've met in my almost 20 years of sailing who circumnavigated or ventured far and wide have done so not in new Oysters or Hinckleys but in older, well proven boats which they brought up to date as best as their budget allowed. Now, granted I only meet the ones who lived to tell me of their circumnavigations but they have done these in 20/30+ year old boats which were well built to begin with. None of them told me of their interest in switching from their old boats into a new production one even if given one for free. And all of course have fantasies of salvaging an abandoned Oyster or a Swan in the middle of the ocean. Actually one almost did that with I forget what brand but missed her by about 70 miles.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by JulieMac

Admittedly, they have largely replaced the skeg rudder with a spade or "skegette". Ports and windows have been enlarged.

You will still find fuel tanks in excess of 100+ gal, and plenty of handholds, however. GRP layup, deck tabbing and strong hull support structures exceed the standards found acceptable by the likes of the large French & German builders.

I'm confused - is this just another rant about lower-end production boats, or a lament about no longer finding old designs being produced?

"Blue Water Boats" seem very much alive to me, although they no longer fit your design criteria.

I'm suspecting now that this is more about labeling certain types of people and damning certain types of boats. You have already thrown around "jet set" and "pop-up TV's". Hope I'm wrong.

Mark

[S/V Illusion]

Heavy tank-like boat construction doesn't equate to safer any more than the 1953 Cadillac is safer than any contemporary automobile.

I don't usually like car metaphors in boat discussions but that doesn't alter the validity of this one. A well built modern boat is always preferable to the old designs.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Bingo! But I'd turn it upside down and say that it is not the market that vanishes but the sailors who are willing to go offshore for extended periods of time. Since the 60s when Pardeys and others showed the world that one does not need a fancy yacht to circumnavigate the offshore crowd was growing with more and more people taking off in what passed for an average well built boat. Today the trend is in the opposite direction - charter few times a year or putz around the near shore 10% of the time while having dockside sundowners 90% of the time.

I don't think you are thinking through this clearly. I agree that that charter market has exploded in the recent years. But those putzing around near shore is probably about the same.

Those going offshore and RTW have increased in numbers, not decreased. The only reason the Pardeys, Hiscocks and a few others are famous is because nobody was doing what they were back then.

Now whole rallies of boats cross oceans and go RTW every year, and sometimes multiple times per year. We just had gaggles of boats come through Panama in two RTW rallies - one led by the WARC and the other by Jimmy Cornell.

I will bet a dollar that the number of boats in just those two rallies exceed the sum of all cruising boats that went RTW throughout the entirety of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's.

Mark

[Stumble]

So looking at the OP's requirements for a BW boat just made me laugh. None of the Dashew's boats would qualify, and I would be hard pressed to think of a design with more miles per keel than those. Or think of a boat I would rather be in while crossing an ocean than Beowulf.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Stumble

So looking at the OP's requirements for a BW boat just made me laugh. None of the Dashew's boats would qualify, and I would be hard pressed to think of a design with more miles per keel than those. Or think of a boat I would rather be in while crossing an ocean than Beowulf.

And it's a good thing Beth and Evans sold Hawk before it killed them.

Jim and Ann Cate in their ULDB are living on borrowed time…

Mark

[NorthernIsland]

Hmmm... What exactly is wrong with a popup TV? Not that I have one, but Iam thinking to build one. I quess my boat no longer qualifies as BW boat then.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[colemj]

Originally Posted by NorthernIsland

Hmmm... What exactly is wrong with a popup TV?

Absolutely nothing, as long as it is an old cathode ray tube model using vacuum tube electronics and it pops up out of a full keel…

It better only show I Love Lucy and Mr. Ed too.

Mark

[robert sailor]

Just as long as your not comparing a Dashew boat or even Evans Hawk with an entry level production boat because there is no comparison in my opinion.