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Old 17-02-2015, 12:11   #121
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Profit is good, without you will cease to produce. But the mindset of the owner has a affect. The builder who cares more for the end result over margin can build a better product. Ask a designer if the profits don't "soil" their design. On the other side if they didn't get soiled the design may never get built. It's all about the balance of comprises, boats, anchors, life.
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:19   #122
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
So a good designer, like in the days of old, did their design without the thought of cost?
No, in my opinion, a good designer then and now includes cost considerations in his/her design. What is the point of a design that can not be built and bought due to the cost?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it....did it fall?
If a great design is never built due to cost...was it ever really "designed"?
Andrew Vavolotis asked Carl to design a 28ft for Cape Dory and they had an idea of what they wanted but thats not always what they got. Here a quote(facts)

"I always asked Carl to design me the beamiest and shallowest boat possible. Then he'd go away and what he came back with was what we used. Of course, it was never as beamy or as shallow as we liked. He never compromised his design principles."

I think you'll find this to be true about a lot of designers maybe even today....designers but not boat building companies.

I think a designer should always take cost into consideration and I believe they did back then too. But lets face it, reality check here, Corporate greed and skimping to save a buck has never been higher than it is today. So I highly doubt that designers were as worried about $$ as they are today...

so I ask you, why are there failures such as keels falling off, is it design flaw, corner cutting, poor materials? What? Please do tell. Surely the new boats and designers have designed boats using computers that should never fail, go anywhere and yield the best possible product at a reasonable cost, so why does this happen over and over?
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:31   #123
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Hello,

I am too green to speak about this boat or that and like John Snow, I know nothing (of the cruising life) or for that matter, blue-water sailing (unless my tours on air craft carriers count). But this feed has been thread-jacked into a domain where my inner engineer comes out.

All this talk about designers knowing or not knowing what they were doing or are doing makes one smile with wonder. I know a fair bit about designing some kinds of things and from what I have learned, I learned enough to know that nothing beats experience. Learning how to learn is critically important but learning from the mistakes or successes of others shortens the training curve.

What matters most is understanding the requirements and living with the consequences of those choices. One can sail all over the world, in any ocean or any weather, in a submarine. But even those machines have depth limits. One can sail in orbit around the Earth but provisioning and spares become rather important.

Design is really only about two things (choices and consequences), though some might argue that these are outcome and investment. I'd say, the latter are both the results of the former.

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Old 17-02-2015, 12:43   #124
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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I am sure he used every bit of material he thought was necessary to build the boat the way he wanted it, not for bottom line profit
now there we go, for someone not interested in the bottom line of his business, I'd second guess his building practices.............
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:44   #125
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Sundae you are right, I kind of got off topic.

But let me be clear. Many older designed boat were not true blue water boats. Surely my Alberg 30 wasnt. But what it was, was seaworthy and designed to have a nice motion in a seaway. I feel that I have a good basic design for offshore sailing and will be upgrading and refitting areas I think need attention like a fiberglassed hull to deck joint. My boat has fastners and some sort of glue but many experienced offshore sailors recommend it be completely glassed, so I will do so.

No more thread drift from this guy
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:56   #126
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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now there we go, for someone not interested in the bottom line of his business, I'd second guess his building practices.............
And you should! again don't confuse the designer with the builder.

Maybe you care to take a stab at why we see boats of newer design that have repeatly have rudder issues, keels falling off? is it design, corner cutting, inferior material? I am not a designer. What I am is someone who has seen what the ocean has to offer and did a bit of reading and found that my chances are better in a certain design of a boat. So I bought one, albeit a small one. Again, I fault no one for their boat of choice to go crossing oceans in, whatever gives you a warm fuzzy.

For the threads sake,
Do you think in 30yrs, 2045, a man, women or couple will buy a boat designed and built to todays standard, 2015, and set sail for distance shores with 30 or so years of age on it? Are todays boats actually Blue water boats and I fail to see it?
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:06   #127
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Are todays boats actually Blue water boats and I fail to see it?
Yes, just as much in the past. Where you are going off the track is in confusing particular production boats with ALL of the boats being designed and built today - production or not.

For example, back around when your boat was being built, Columbia was building a crap-load of boats that would not be considered "BWB". At the same time, Hinckley and many others were building what most would consider "BWB".

I have been trying - in vain, apparently - to point this out in this thread. There are tons of "BWB" boats being built. The fear of "Huntabenalina" exhibited here obscures this basic fact.

Of course, as Polux has shown time and again, these true current BWB's may not fit the design criteria that many think makes a "BWB".

Those boat designs really are now in the dustbin of history.

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Old 17-02-2015, 13:07   #128
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

There are many older well proven blue water yachts still sailing well. I suspect the current fleet is sufficient for those looking for a tough truck of the seas.

Clearly survival as a boat builder is mostly dependent on marketing and cost minimization in the supply chain.

Our 31 year old Liberty 458 is in great condition but wouldn't survive a marketing battle. It also wouldn't be economical to build today. Thick hull and a solid air dried teak interior wouldn't get past the bean counters and cost down engineers these days.

That's fine. We were more interested in toughness and maintainability. We have 110 lockers and a great layout for two liveaboards. We don't have a great layout for parties and chartering.

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Old 17-02-2015, 13:12   #129
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Talking Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
And you should! again don't confuse the designer with the builder.
<clip>
Maybe you care to take a stab at why we see boats of newer design that have repeatly have rudder issues, keels falling off? is it design, corner cutting, inferior material? I am not a designer. <snip>
Hello,

A good designer will take into account certain misgivings of the builder (outright incompetence or criminal intent not withstanding). A big driver in overbuilding certain elements of the design is what engineers call lawyer proofing. If people die by the failure of one's creation, so goes the profit margin from lawsuits (frivolous or not). It's a big problem in aviation and thank Neptune that it hasn't had as much of of an impact on the nautical world, at least not that I am aware of anyway...

Boats and planes are similar in that neither has a high tolerance for things to go sideways. It is my personal feeling that one of the reasons that there is less legislation in the boating world is that yachts don't fall out of the sky and burn people's homes to the ground. The era of barn storming (not a term of endearment) did much to hasten the American government's interest in the regulation of the credentials of pilots and eventually mechanical repairs.

Another reason that aviation is unlike nautical is because the craft is so ancient. One imagines that in pubs throughout coastal regions bar fights occurred over the rise of steam engines, paddle wheels, and impellers. Sailors are like that, may God bless us.

Kindest,

Sundae
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:12   #130
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
now there we go, for someone not interested in the bottom line of his business, I'd second guess his building practices.............
His building practices may have been fine, but not his business practices, and that's why he no longer builds boats.

He should have spent more time on the curtains and interior patterns. A bit of marketing savvy may have kept him in vogue...
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:31   #131
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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You make my point. If the offshore market is 1% or 3%, then finding an affordable BWB less than 25 years old will disappear. If not now, then in a decade.

Maybe the big story here is the vanishing offshore market.
The OP is talking nonsense! And maybe reading it in books, too. There are more folks cruising greater distances in more different boats than ever before. And engineering analysis, not to mention empirical evidence, have given designers a better notion of what "blue water boats" might really be. It's called progress. I sail a Leopard cat, these days, actually for the last ten and a half years. The boat has been from Capetown to the Caribbean, and twice up to the Chesapeake and back without a structural issue, or any other issue, for that matterm not to mention done fourteen years of charter work. A few years ago, when Leopard delivered almost all their boats, all over the world, on their own bottoms, they exceeded 5,000,000 (that's MILLION) miles, without, I believe, loosing a boat. It's called progress. What's the point of arguing that they aren't blue water capable, as well as charter capable, other than to slam someone else's esthetic, and to celebrate the ancient. I remember when the Pardey's wrote an article about how it was safer to cruise with a sextant rather than a GPS, because the GPS might go out. Yep, it might. You might also carry two or three, and even a sextant for backup. But safer with just a sextant? Or safer with an old super heavy boat that can't get out of it's own way? I am sure that the Leopards are far from the only brand that can cite a great deal of actual, Blue Water testing with their boats.

The reason lots of people cruise old boats is that they can be incredibly cost effective, not because they are necessarily better blue water boats. Just a better bang for the buck. But people make extraordinary claims to justify their choices and decisions.
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:37   #132
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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For example, back around when your boat was being built, Columbia was building a crap-load of boats that would not be considered "BWB". At the same time, Hinckley and many others were building what most would consider "BWB".

I have been trying - in vain, apparently - to point this out in this thread. There are tons of "BWB" boats being built. The fear of "Huntabenalina" exhibited here obscures this basic fact.
.

Mark
You are correct, true blue water Hinckleys and one off boats are out there and always will be, but at a cost. Honestly I dont know too many people who have $1.5 Million to score a 2015 Hinckley. Ill bet, excuse as I generalize, no one on this forum debating this issue does either. If you do have that kind of money, I am sorry for putting you in that category.

Boats like Cape Dorys, Pearson, Bristol and Albergs are boats that average working man can afford and safely cruise given the required upgrades. These boats are old but were designed in a way that made them seaworthy and safe in seaway although none were built to cross oceans. But with some elbow grease and relatively little money a man of average means can build himself a small safe cruiser. Thats all Im saying. The hull designs back then, whether just copies of wooden boats or done on purpose are just safer at sea. Again I am not making this up, do some reading.

My Alberg interior was just thrown together I have eyes and can see that and many production boats of the era were. No ,my Alberg is not a hinckley by any means but her hull shape and design leads her to be a safe passage maker. Can you say that about production boat designs being built today? I don't know. I know from what I have read that many boats today are designed and built contrary to what has been known to provide safe comfortable passage.

Like I said, If you are comfy and have a warm fuzzy sailing your boat then thats all that really matters
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:39   #133
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

If you look at the boats people are really cruising with, and you ask them their preferemces, you'll likely start to get a picture of the most desirable qualities in a "bluewater boat." But if I were in the business of building boats, and I wanted to make even a little money, I'd have to consider what customers want. There aren't many people now who are willing to pay a lot of money for a brand new boat designed for cruising. There will always be custom boats for those willing to pay... But the old school boats...they may be already extinct.
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:52   #134
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

There are sure lots of choices out there if you are going to cross oceans. You can sail something like a HR or a Bavaria and the likely hood is high that both boats will make it to the next port. You can also sail a heavy displacement boat with a long keel and barn door rudder and you'll get there as well but maybe a bit slower. There are just so many choices and no one has cornered the perfect one.
Having said that if I was going to sail a 30 foot or smaller I would want a heavier displacement boat, the light weight fin keeler is just to bloody lively to have any comfort and the heavier boat is in my mind is safer. Once you get into the 40 foot range I prefer a fin keel boat with at least a partial skeg.
Those that have said that offshore choices have been morphing over the years are spot on. When I started crossing oceans the perfect boat was the Valiant 40 and it took years for it to trump the Westsail. After that came boats like the Peterson 44 and all of Perry's designs as well as the Pacific Seacraft etc etc. I sailed a light weight fin keel boat 30 years ago and was looked down on as it was considered not worthy to cross oceans. Well now my old light weight is now a middle weight compared to many of the boats used today. Everything changes and many of us try to hold on to the past, normal I guess but there have been lots of design improvements in many of the new boats and they are fun to sail. There are areas I draw the line. When certain boats have histories of loosing rudders I shy away, when the whole bloody steering assembly starts to break down, I shy away. Loosing keels is a rare event indeed but if I saw a trend you'd never get me offshore in one of those boats. I have never been sold on boats with full liners because I have never met a yard guy who had anything good to say about that method of construction plus my own personal experience years ago when the liner broke away from the hull after a bit of a rough landing in a windstorm. Not a mark outside the boat but the rigging was loose after and the repair was very expensive. First and last boat I owned with a full liner.
Every time we visit someone on a Cat I fall in love with the room and the bright living areas, boy there sure has been a lot of changes in the last 30-40 years.
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Old 17-02-2015, 13:58   #135
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
You are correct, true blue water Hinckleys and one off boats are out there and always will be, but at a cost. Honestly I dont know too many people who have $1.5 Million to score a 2015 Hinckley. Ill bet, excuse as I generalize, no one on this forum debating this issue does either. If you do have that kind of money, I am sorry for putting you in that category.

Boats like Cape Dorys, Pearson, Bristol and Albergs are boats that average working man can afford and safely cruise given the required upgrades. These boats are old but were designed in a way that made them seaworthy and safe in seaway although none were built to cross oceans. But with some elbow grease and relatively little money a man of average means can build himself a small safe cruiser. Thats all Im saying. The hull designs back then, whether just copies of wooden boats or done on purpose are just safer at sea. Again I am not making this up, do some reading.

My Alberg interior was just thrown together I have eyes and can see that and many production boats of the era were. No ,my Alberg is not a hinckley by any means but her hull shape and design leads her to be a safe passage maker. Can you say that about production boat designs being built today? I don't know. I know from what I have read that many boats today are designed and built contrary to what has been known to provide safe comfortable passage.

Like I said, If you are comfy and have a warm fuzzy sailing your boat then thats all that really matters
I didn't mean a Hinckley now, but back then. But even so, a "BWB" back then cost similar relative money, and the cheaper production boats were not considered suitable offshore boats. And these "BWB" builders were not really "production" builders - more like limited build boutiques.

This thread wasn't about buying an older boat - it was a lament that old designs are no longer being built, so that the near future will be void of any design suitable for "BW" sailing. Or it is another "huntabenelina" bash - I have trouble telling.

It is also a thread with the mistaken premise that in the past, "BWB's" were ubiquitous and inexpensive to the common man. And that people were going RTW, left and right, in huge numbers.

Frankly, it is a rather confusing thread based on pretty much no reality that ever existed outside a romanticized idealism.

There is a reason for these designs not being around anymore, as many have been trying to point out.

Yes, I can certainly say that there are production boat designs built today that are safe, comfortable and "BWB". Safer and more comfortable than the designs you are stuck on for several reasons - including stability and strength.

Again, the all-consuming fear and loathing of "Huntabenelinas" blind people to this fact regardless of how many examples get posted. These do not represent the ENTIRETY of production boats anymore than Colombia did in the 1970's.

Mark
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