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Old 17-02-2015, 10:30   #106
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Talking Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Oh where, oh where is that tongue-in-cheek emoticon????

I seem to be lost here without it…

BTW, you do not want an xyz anchor - new or used…

Mark
Now you did it, someone is going to defend their xyz.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:31   #107
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Thanks Mark, thats my boat........................

I love those Benni 42's, other than DDW they sail like witches and they are the last of a breed when Benni's construction was world class. If looked after that boat will last a long time.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:33   #108
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Forget about the boats....but maybe what will die is the "blue water boat" myth and RIP along with the buggy whip, incandescent lights, and steam engines.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:37   #109
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Followed by lots of self tapping screws and few nuts and bolts.
Play nice - you aren't supposed to call these people names.

Funny that even mass produced multihulls are using directional fibers, modern coring and bagging or infusion techniques (I actually think balsa makes good coring).

None of the production monos are using these?

Mark
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:42   #110
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
No, I didn't mean that I personally found it worse - just that it moves it further away from what others here think is a "real BWB".

There just isn't enough emoticons available to express myself well…

Mark

Well the older Benni 42 was an open ocean racer and it was built the old fashion way with glassed in bulkheads and furniture and a very strong hull. If someone is looking for a real blue water boat you don't have to go any further then the mid 80's Benni 38/40/42/45's all excellent boats for water sailing">blue water sailing.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:47   #111
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

I just bought a 1981 cruiser. It isn't a full keel like my last one. I wouldn't buy a full keel again. Feels pretty good in a seaway but too much of a slug. I do have a skeg-hung rudder and wouldn't buy one without it for offshore. That's personal preference.

I have also worked on too many full pan boats and wouldn't have one. Too damn hard to fix or add things - like wire for windlasses. Or wire for anything for that matter. The little conduits they put on are a joke. I also like a bilge to catch and hold that bit of water that invariably gets in. Personal preference.

Handholds and a u-shaped galley are musts for me though. Been there done that. Almost lost the Admiral from the galley even with the U. She wasn't clipped in. Got seriously banged up and carried the scars to this day. Even handholds aren't enough at times. A cat would be ok without though but other personal preference things with those for me.

Don't need 4" thick GRP. Lighter is better so long as it is strong. Some new boats are some aren't. I'd be fine with aluminum but haven't found the right boat with that yet on the market for a price I could afford.

Big cockpits are great at anchor or in a marina. I really miss our old center cockpit for just that alone. But I would have one of the new ones with the wide open exposed cockpits. Would put up some side curtains and some hard points for clipping in but heaven help you if a wave picks you up and throws you that far away. Can't seem to find those nice calm passages 100% of the time. Only takes one of the 5% to ruin your day. Sure would be nice though. Personal preference. Lots of people have gone RTW with those kind of boats.

I do like a boat that has that "dead" sound feel to it when all hell is breaking loose outside. It can be scary enough anyway. Personal preference.

I have looked at the new production boats and some meet my personal preferences, others don't. Other than the less than appealing lines (personal preference) the Island Packets and the Pacific Seacraft are good seaworthy boats. Seaworthy as defined by my personal preference. No way can I afford a cat and it would be prohibitively expensive to keep one moored here (for me).

Other stuff you need regardless - good sails, anchor, rode, safety gear, radios, electronics, tankage (enough whatever that is), etc. I'm just happy that there are older boats that have been sorted out with cruising gear that appeals to me, that are strong enough for where I want to go, that have been maintained to a level I can continue on my budget, that I can work on, at a price I can afford. Most newer boats don't meet my personal preferences. I wish they did. Who doesn't like having a nice shiny new thing. But I'll never buy a new house again. Costs too much to get it ready.

One thing is totally clear - older boats like I just described stay on the market about 2-3 weeks before they are gone. They have to be "clean" but you know what I mean. I have friends who have been looking for a year now. I looked for over a year and one boat I liked after another got sold while I was thinking about it. Plenty of trashed boats that "have" my personal preferences but I don't have the time, interest, or money to fix them back up. And I can't afford any newer boats that come close that I can afford. They are out there.

Nigel Calder's "old" Malo 46 "Serene" is for sale for $599k if anyone is interested. He did a nice job with a newish design and build from a reputable yard. I just bought mine for $120k and will put in about $30-40k in to it to get to about the same kit that Serene has. And mine will be as safe, comfortable, and fast as his. Although I had to settle for less tankage than I would prefer. Always have to "settle" for something or another.

I am happy to hear about how I didn't do my homework right and that there are other "better" boats out there for the same money, etc. All I can say is that I used my previous experiences and developed my own personal preferences and budget and there aren't any newer boats that meet those. To each his/her own. There are still older boats that will outlive me and many of you. And there will be a lot of newer boats which won't.

But cars a like that too. Some are classics and durable and some aren't. I have a 2001 4Runner that meets my personal preferences. I don't want all the new electronics. Hell - I had to replace the computer on the 4R for one boat buck. Newer ones are worse. I had to special order the Admiral's new car without a center GPS display. Don't want that "feature" to fix for three boat bucks. Built in electronics are a growth industry for car dealers. But that's a different story. Newer is not always better.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:51   #112
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Play nice - you aren't supposed to call these people names.

Funny that even mass produced multihulls are using directional fibers, modern coring and bagging or infusion techniques (I actually think balsa makes good coring).

None of the production monos are using these?

Mark
There might be some of the mid priced boats using those methods, the odd bit of Kevlar in the bow of some to give you the feeling you can bounce off containers, primarily a sales gimmick but from what I have been able to learn its pretty basic construction and for that matter it works and it keeps the prices down. Infusion is starting to be used more these days as resin prices were getting up there and factories could handle the process better. O just came back from the boat yard out here and one of the guys said they had a new Lagoon in that got a hard slap from a wave when they were crossing the Atlantic and it broke furniture away from the hull, must have bee a good slap. I never saw it with my own eyes.
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:07   #113
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
A large portion applies to boats. 40-50yrs ago, the average builder had not clue about the structural properties so they overbuilt to be on the safe side. Modern boats are designed much better. Yes, there is the occasional mistake but those brands usually don't suvive long.

Also, many of the old blue water designs were basicaly knock offs of older wood designs. It's really hard to build a sturdy wood boat with a fin keel, so the standard was a long keel with slack bilges. Fiberglass changed the rules but it took some time to learn how to take advantage of it.
Valhalla360,
Please site your source for this information for lack of knowledge of structure properties, I keep hearing how boat builders and engineers had "no clue" back in the day. I highly doubt Mr Alberg was just guessing about how strong fiberglass was. I think just the opposite. He and others actually did know and in order to get the displacement needed for the boat to sit on the lines drawn( also a side benefit of safe passage and comfortable sailing) that the correct amount of fiberglass was used.....
Some great structures were built in the early days long before computer analysis ie; Golden Gate bridge, Pyramids, Hoover dam just to name a few. Mr Alberg(just one example of earlier designers) was an engineer for Coast Guard which means he probably had quite a bit of knowledge and information at his disposal. I am sure he used every bit of material he thought was necessary to build the boat the way he wanted it, not for bottom line profit

I
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:21   #114
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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I am sure he used every bit of material he thought was necessary to build the boat the way he wanted it, not for bottom line profit
Now we are just typing crazy talk....as if the designers of old were not interested in bottom line profit......and the tooth fairy is real after all.
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:33   #115
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Now we are just typing crazy talk....as if the designers of old were not interested in bottom line profit......and the tooth fairy is real after all.
Might not be so crazy, in the book Heart of glass it talks about Pearson having issues with how things were being done under new management. Not the norm but not unheard of caring about your products.
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:40   #116
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Might not be so crazy, in the book Heart of glass it talks about Pearson having issues with how things were being done under new management. Not the norm but not unheard of caring about your products.
Who ever said anything about not caring about the products you sell? That's just as crazy.

I hate to break some bubbles here....but business 101 is to create the best product you can for the customer and do it at a price so the business can keep the doors open and pay the bills plus a little bit for Tacos. This myth that you can't make a great product that you care deeply about from a quality and service standpoint while at the same time making money is BS. Making a profit is NOT evil and doesn't soil the design process when factoring it into consideration, that's just smart. You would not have your boat or gear without someone else making a profit, it's how the world works and I get tired of hearing how evil profit is, then go to work for free and see how long that world utopia lasts.
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:54   #117
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Now we are just typing crazy talk....as if the designers of old were not interested in bottom line profit......and the tooth fairy is real after all.
I hope you meant that in jest! Designers design the boats, companies build them. Not sure if thats how it is today but thats usually how it was back in the early days of production boat building.

Case in point Carl Alberg designed the Alberg 30 for Whitby Boats in Canada. The boat was designed for a lead ballast and an taller rig than what was produced, why?? because to cut costs the owner of Whitby Boat used cast iron for ballast and to compensate the had to shorten the rig. Turns out, and Carl admitted, it worked out.

I have no fight in this other than to say that boats designed for safe offshore passage are becoming harder and harder to find. As the title of the thread says. I could care less what boat anyone else sails, I know what makes me feel comfortable in a boat and the design of that boat. I also take comfort in knowing that boats like mine were sailed around the world in the early days of circumnavigation. I think any boat can go anywhere. But should you happen to find yourself in a situation where you can't hide from a storm, Id rather be in an older heavy full keel boat. If youd rather be in a storm in a newer designed boat...well have at it, just know there has been actual research and factual data to prove the narrower full keel heavy displacement boat stands a better chance of making it through.
As I have stated before, most any boat will take way more than the man, woman or crew, except in situation where the rudder fails or falls off, the keel falls off. These things should tell you something about how these newer boats are being made. Tells me maybe modern engineers don't have 'A clue" about the structural integrity of the material they are working with......call me crazy
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Old 17-02-2015, 11:59   #118
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

exMaggieDrum: nothin to comment as affirmative
old time designers <1990 built boats they wanted to sail
new tim designers built boats their clients want!

My boat: 47 long keel ketch 20 tons
tested upto 24ft waves and 60knots
and her movements were comfortable
slept like a baby at 60 knots

Profession: coastal charter skipper croatia
boats: 36 to 50ft > 2OOO
TES
tested upto 50knots and 20ft wave
nervous and fast but wave slamming beasts
hitting and under-cutting waves
sleeping? yes if you get accustomed to fly
while sleeping - even amidships
and it simply did not feel good > 35knots

BUT with my Vagabond 47 60knots + 24ft waves
were like sitting in the first row of a cinema!!!
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:02   #119
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Designers design the boats, companies build them.
So a good designer, like in the days of old, did their design without the thought of cost?
No, in my opinion, a good designer then and now includes cost considerations in his/her design. What is the point of a design that can not be built and bought due to the cost?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it....did it fall?
If a great design is never built due to cost...was it ever really "designed"?
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Old 17-02-2015, 12:10   #120
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

[QUOTE=carstenb;1751092]While not a Bavaria - this is a Dehler 31. The video is in german, but you don't need the audio to understand. This boat did a pretty good job of crashing into most everything without any real damage.

[/QUOTED

I have heard it said that a single data point trumps any expert's opinion.
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