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Old 17-02-2015, 09:14   #91
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by bcboomer View Post
Has anyone else been following these guys?

Adventure 40 Progress Report

Their aim is to have a production run of true "blue water" boats that are affordable. Big challenge but lots of talent and experience being thrown at it.
That thing has a fin keel, spade rudder, wide stern sections, flat bilge, high aspect rig, moderate displacement and the SAILS ARE NOT EVEN INCLUDED!

No way is that a "blue water" boat.

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Old 17-02-2015, 09:19   #92
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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There was a time when aircraft came apart in the air because materials were not that well understood yet. My point is that improved knowledge of the properties of materials, and improved design methods means that one should not automatically equate "lighter" with "less strong". And aviation does illustrate that.

That time was a very long time ago. The old methods of building aircraft are still considered by most to be excellent construction methods.
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Old 17-02-2015, 09:27   #93
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
That time was a very long time ago. The old methods of building aircraft are still considered by most to be excellent construction methods.
The "old methods" have the advantage of not needing to be rectified. However when I see a company making an attempt at designing a new aircraft from scratch I don't see a lot of "old methods" being applied...
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Old 17-02-2015, 09:32   #94
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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The comparison does hold. For one thing, airplanes are also build with the least amount of materials (and for a reason). The point I'm making here is that reducing the amount of material does not mean that the end result is less strong.
As to "the cheapest materials", I wouldn't be surprised if the base materials used nowadays are more expensive (at constant prices) then the ones used 3 decades ago. Boat construction has become rather high tech. Lookign at how the big ones produce I seem to have the impression that the cost savings mostly come from having more efficient processes, not corner cutting...

Entry level boats are primarily polyester resin which is the cheapest FG out there and has bee used for the last 50 years plus so no high tech materials there. The only change started in the 80's by better builders and that was to add a layer of vinylester resin to reduce the blistering later most all the builders followed. Other than some better glues the boats are now made with liners that allow them to me made quicker and cheaper by unskilled labor in a factory. All the talk about high tech entry level boats is just that, talk! Having said that the boats are cheaper to make and allow people to buy boats that might not otherwise be able to so that is all good plus they are bigger and sometimes even faster and are better designed for most uses today so all is good. Are they better than a well built boat from 25 years ago, not in my opinion but they are good enough.
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Old 17-02-2015, 09:34   #95
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by bcboomer View Post
Has anyone else been following these guys?

Adventure 40 Progress Report

Their aim is to have a production run of true "blue water" boats that are affordable. Big challenge but lots of talent and experience being thrown at it.
seemed like a lot of words that aren't anything new
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Old 17-02-2015, 09:43   #96
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Entry level boats are primarily polyester resin which is the cheapest FG out there and has bee used for the last 50 years plus so no high tech materials there. The only change started in the 80's by better builders and that was to add a layer of vinylester resin to reduce the blistering later most all the builders followed. Other than some better glues the boats are now made with liners that allow them to me made quicker and cheaper by unskilled labor in a factory. All the talk about high tech entry level boats is just that, talk! Having said that the boats are cheaper to make and allow people to buy boats that might not otherwise be able to so that is all good plus they are bigger and sometimes even faster and are better designed for most uses today so all is good. Are they better than a well built boat from 25 years ago, not in my opinion but they are good enough.
The glass itself has changed. I don't know what every production boat uses now, but stitched directional fabrics of higher quality glasses make a huge difference in lightness and strength.

Coring materials have also changed things much. As have bagging and infusion techniques.

So even with good ole cheap polyester resin, higher strength, lighter weight boats can still be built. Even cheaper than slobbering on thick layers of mat and woven roving.

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Old 17-02-2015, 09:49   #97
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
The "old methods" have the advantage of not needing to be rectified. However when I see a company making an attempt at designing a new aircraft from scratch I don't see a lot of "old methods" being applied...

The newest methods all seem to favor composite construction and to be honest I real!y don't know that much about them but I do know that you can build unbelievably strong aircraft using old technology that you can really count on. I taught aerobatics for years and I'm very comfortable flying a tube and rag aircraft that can take more G force than you could and do it over and over day in and day out and if looked after would outlast anyone on this forum. Sailboats build with reinforced hulls and tabbed in bulkheads and furniture Im sure are stronger and longer lasting than the modern thin hulls with full internal liners. The biggest differences are the time and money it costs to construct better products.
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Old 17-02-2015, 09:50   #98
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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If you need all that expensive crap to sail then you have no business being on the water.

Or so I have heard…

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Most on that list is "wants" not "needs". You need sails you want them to be new. You need a anchor you want new xyz anchor. There is no right or wrong way, only "your" way. People have and will cruise in and with whatever "they" seem fit for them.
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Old 17-02-2015, 09:55   #99
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
Most on that list is "wants" not "needs". You need sails you want them to be new. You need a anchor you want new xyz anchor. There is no right or wrong way, only "your" way. People have and will cruise in and with whatever "they" seem fit for them.
Oh where, oh where is that tongue-in-cheek emoticon????

I seem to be lost here without it…

BTW, you do not want an xyz anchor - new or used…

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Old 17-02-2015, 10:03   #100
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
That thing has a fin keel, spade rudder, wide stern sections, flat bilge, high aspect rig, moderate displacement and the SAILS ARE NOT EVEN INCLUDED!

No way is that a "blue water" boat.

Mark
I dont know? , as it sure looks like close to a mid 80s Open Ocean IOR design.. not as pointy on the rear but pretty close.....
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:09   #101
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
I dont know? , as it sure looks like close to a mid 80s Open Ocean IOR design..
Good God, that's worse!!!

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Old 17-02-2015, 10:15   #102
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Good God, that's worse!!!

Mark

Thanks Mark, thats my boat........................
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:16   #103
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
There was a time when aircraft came apart in the air because materials were not that well understood yet. My point is that improved knowledge of the properties of materials, and improved design methods means that one should not automatically equate "lighter" with "less strong". And aviation does illustrate that.

Yes but weight in aircraft construction does still provide a good proxy for durability and tolerance of mishandling. The increases use of automation in air transport is decreasing the amount of inadvertent abuse that airframe sustain so there is less of a need to overbuild. The relatively recent phenomenon of pilots in manual control over stressing empennage is an example of this.

And yes strength loss is a reasonable conclusion to draw from something being lighter. Take coring for example, while you can make a hull much lighter while still being just as strong or stronger in resisting sailing loads punching strength and abrasion resistance are compromised so any moderate bump is a cause for immediate concern with a cores hull boat.

Yes there are ways ameliorate these problems but lots of money are involved. In air transport that money is available, not so with production boat building.


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Old 17-02-2015, 10:23   #104
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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The glass itself has changed. I don't know what every production boat uses now, but stitched directional fabrics of higher quality glasses make a huge difference in lightness and strength.

Coring materials have also changed things much. As have bagging and infusion techniques.

So even with good ole cheap polyester resin, higher strength, lighter weight boats can still be built. Even cheaper than slobbering on thick layers of mat and woven roving.

Mark

Agreed, its just not seen in entry level boats. Balsa core and polyester resin and stock glass is the primary diet of new construction. Followed by lots of self tapping screws and few nuts and bolts.
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Old 17-02-2015, 10:26   #105
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Thanks Mark, thats my boat........................
No, I didn't mean that I personally found it worse - just that it moves it further away from what others here think is a "real BWB".

There just isn't enough emoticons available to express myself well…

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