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Old 16-02-2015, 15:20   #31
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Absolutely nothing, as long as it is an old cathode ray tube model using vacuum tube electronics and it pops up out of a full keel…

It better only show I Love Lucy and Mr. Ed too.

Mark
Sure thing. This was to OP just to point out her completely random definition of a BW boat. Life goes on.
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Old 16-02-2015, 15:22   #32
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Just as long as your not comparing a Dashew boat or even Evans Hawk with an entry level production boat because there is no comparison in my opinion.
Come on Robert - keep up. I swear that without Smackdaddy around anymore, you are losing your focus.

Nobody is comparing Dashew boats and Hawk with entry level production boats.

We are bashing entry level production boats while simultaneously lamenting that they don't make blue water boat designs anymore. It is all about jet-setting between pop-up TV's now.

This time next year, nobody will be able to cross an ocean for lack of a suitable boat.

Good thing you made it across this year - hope you like it here...

Mark
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Old 16-02-2015, 15:30   #33
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

I think the boats "I" would feel comfortable sailing in will be extinct or will be one off builds but others will continue to sail the world in whatever boat they fancy.
I am a firm believer in the safety of a full deep keeled boat. It has been proven through research and lives lost or saved(depending upon how you look at it) that these heavy full keel types of boats have a better chance of surviving serious weather or a storm similar to the one experienced Fastnet of 1979.
Extensive study was done after that 1979 disaster and research showed that the current trend in yacht design was dangerous for the offshore sailor. Many of these old racers are now becoming cruisers. Current yacht design has only made boats wide and flatter since 1979. It didnt say you couldnt sail a newer designed boat through a storm it just said you had a better chance of surviving on a heavier narrow full keel boat.
Read the first 4 chapters of 'Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts". It goes into great detail of the physics of why a heavy displacement narrow deep full keeled boat is a safer one.
I also think one of the reasons many people are having success sailing newer designs, fatter and flatter, is because of better weather routing and forecasting, making smarter decisions about when to go and when not to go. also through trial and error of those who went before. Knowing what time of year was best and which routes would safely get you there. 60-70 years ago ocean voyaging was just starting for the masses(per se). Another added feature of newer boats is that they are faster, they can out run or change direction to avoid the storm in some cases( better communication and forecasting).
I just hope people educate themselves on how to handle the boat they decide to set off voyaging on. It takes a good sailor to know how to handle his boat in the event of a storm and the proper equipment. I will agree most boats will prolly out last the crew aboard, as seen time and time again on these videos of CG rescuing people off of floating small craft.

Choose whatever boat you want to voyage offshore, just know that the odds may or may not be stacked against you depending upon the design you choose. I know what type of boat "I" feel more comfortable in.
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Old 16-02-2015, 15:37   #34
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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The first Range Rover was built in 1970, and was a luxury off-road vehicle. Do you mean Land Rover?

Yes, as God forbid I confuse the name Land Rover and Land Cruiser I guess


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Old 16-02-2015, 16:17   #35
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

After living aboard and cruising for 20 yrs, We have seen successful cruisers in every kind of boat imaginable, My point being that it's more the sailor than the boat. eg. what Slocum did in his vessels. Especially his voyage from Brazil to Boston. That was all seamanship! That said of course the vessel matters. But any well found vessel can voyage. As a US Sailing instructor for a large sailing school/ charter club I am often asked "will this Jenneau, Catalina, Hunter be a boat I can go long range cruising in. My answer is absolutely. Many people have successfully done so. But is that what the boat was designed for? No not primarily. It's design function is primarily as a family boat for general use and they are darn good at it. Would we cross an ocean with one? Yes and we have. My own cruising boats have been of the older variety like many mentioned earlier, an Alberg 35, a Kelly Peterson 44 and a Cal 2-46. These vessels are proven, comfortable (well the Alberg was pretty tight quarters) and capable. And AFFORDABLE. This last attribute is quite important. If I can't afford it, what else matters!! eg. Slocum voyaged to Boston in a home made pile of scrape. He called it a canoe.
7 ft beam 3 ft draft, almost an open deck! with crude trunk cabin. He made it because of his skills. I wouldn't have even thought about doing that!! So pick a boat that you can afford and will match your abilities.








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Old 16-02-2015, 16:19   #36
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Heavy tank-like boat construction doesn't equate to safer any more than the 1953 Cadillac is safer than any contemporary automobile.

I don't usually like car metaphors in boat discussions but that doesn't alter the validity of this one. A well built modern boat is always preferable to the old designs.
Car design has improved based on newer materials, computer aided design and more robust crash testing. Some of this may apply to boats, some not.

Coming from a guy with an Alden, I'm a bit surprised. Would you trade your boat in for a new Hanse or Bavaria?
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Old 16-02-2015, 16:26   #37
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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I'm posing the question based on production trends of the last 20+ years.

Hulls are getting flatter, beamier and lighter. Fewer handholds are to be found, while fin keels and spade rudders have replaced full keels and skegs.

Cockpits are designed for entertainment in port, rather than to protect the crew while offshore. Storage and tankage have been replaced by pop up TV's and wide living spaces.

Have most boat builders acknowledged that to survive in today's marketplace means designing their boats for 7 day charters in fair weather conditions? That fewer people today choose to cross oceans, but are permanent members of the 'jet set'?

Will the tiny production numbers of Oyster, Hallberg-Rassy and the like be enough to keep the blue water boat tradition alive?

Will boats of this caliber be seen as charming reminders of days gone by, like the era of the schooner?
The serious sailor that want a purpose built vessel has it built to their requirements . There are plenty of yards available worldwide but often come at a cost. Cornell's latest vessel is an example.
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Old 16-02-2015, 16:31   #38
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Cruiser2B View Post
I think the boats "I" would feel comfortable sailing in will be extinct or will be one off builds but others will continue to sail the world in whatever boat they fancy.....

Choose whatever boat you want to voyage offshore, just know that the odds may or may not be stacked against you depending upon the design you choose. I know what type of boat "I" feel more comfortable in.
That's my point. My margin of error for going 500 miles offshore (outside the reach of a CG helicopter) requires the likes of a boat built for the North Atlantic in bad weather.

Design and material differences make one boat more valuable than another. I have a hard time believing that a new Rassy at $800,000 is needlessly upcharged versus a high production run boat $400,000 less.

I'll take the best built boat I can afford and throw in my small flatscreen TV. Wouldn't want to miss an episode of Mr. Ed.
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Old 16-02-2015, 16:37   #39
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Just as long as your not comparing a Dashew boat or even Evans Hawk with an entry level production boat because there is no comparison in my opinion.
Of course not. We own a Beneteau because we cruise the coast. If I was headed off shore (not the Carribean) it would be in a substantially different boat. But none of the boats I would consider would qualify under this definition of a Blue Water Boat.

Nothing wrong with the boats, it's the definition that is wrong.
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Old 16-02-2015, 16:38   #40
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

To me, any boat can take you anywhere so long as it's properly prepared. Now, having said that, the boat i would feel most comfortable in has either an encapsulated modified fin keel and full skeg, or a full keel. Why? Not because I'm worried about the keel or rudder falling off or any of the other nonsense that gets spewed out, but because I feel more confident in the boat being able to handle MY screwups without severe damage. For example, running aground or getting the rudder (or skeg) caught on a line. The older design gives ME a bigger margin for error.

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Old 16-02-2015, 16:49   #41
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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The only one I can think of that's even remotely can be calle BW is the IP but even they have their issues which make them less than suitable as BW boat, such as not having a windlass as a standard feature. I can understand not having a TV or some such, but to lack a windlass on a half a mil supposedly BW boat? Seriously?
I prefer to buy my own windlass, anchor,rode etc
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Old 16-02-2015, 16:53   #42
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

I wonder who built the long boat that the crew of the Bounty set Capt. Bligh afloat in, he made a huge voyage without much of anything.
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Old 16-02-2015, 17:12   #43
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Car design has improved based on newer materials, computer aided design and more robust crash testing. Some of this may apply to boats, some not.

Coming from a guy with an Alden, I'm a bit surprised. Would you trade your boat in for a new Hanse or Bavaria?
Interesting question..

I've had more problems with this boat than our prior one - a Hunter.

to your point, the Alden is a contemporary design and build which I suspect few would have a problem taking anywhere. Older doesn't equate to better by any measure, be it cars or boats.
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Old 16-02-2015, 17:16   #44
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

I have a Toyota Land Cruiser. Its unofficial name is Land Rover Rescue Vehicle


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Old 16-02-2015, 17:32   #45
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

YES....
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