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Old 20-02-2015, 10:09   #256
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Hmmm. We must be reading different threads.

Mark
Well, in any case, I think we can agree that few people comprehend how much the real cost of owning a cruising boat has come down over the years, and this is mostly the result of engineering and efficient production methods which didn't exist then.

This is essential perspective to the question of whether modern inexpensive production boats are any good or not. They may not be as good as old boats like that Pearson, where raw strength is concerned, and may not be as good as "high end" boats in many respects, but they are an unbelievable value for money compared to days of old.

And even where raw strength is concerned, older, less-engineered boats are not necessarily always better. My old Pearson, heavy, built like a brick outhouse, and supremely comfortable for her size in a hard seaway, still had lots of weak points. We burst a lower shroud chainplate on that boat (with an almighty TWANG) when sailing in moderate conditions (I was damned lucky the rig didn't come down). What a poorly engineered component, that turned out to be, when we took it apart, and underbuilt, too. The hull layup on the Benes I've sailed is much lighter, but the chainplates are much better designed and actually heavier -- and that's a pretty typical portrait of the differences.

There can be no question that there has been huge progress in the industry.
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Old 20-02-2015, 10:52   #257
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This is essential perspective to the question of whether modern inexpensive production boats are any good or not.
But here is the point others seem to be missing. There WERE inexpensive production boats back in the old days also.

One could buy a Bayliner, Chrysler, AMC, Bombadier, Tanzer, Grampian, Paceship, and many other long-lost brands of sailboats back then.

THESE boats were the equivalent of today's Hunters, Catalina's, etc.

Everybody looks past those boats as if they didn't exist and pollute the rosy view of the great days of design and build of yore.

I will take the worse new Hunter now any day over a new Bayliner or Chrysler back then. Comparatively, the Hunter is indeed a world-girdler.

Mark
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Old 20-02-2015, 10:56   #258
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Certainly! But there is a whole lot of daylight between Dashew's boats, and the boats Evans favors for high latitude sailing, and the "wedgies" in favor with some builders these days.

In fact, the contrast between Dashew's Sundeers and a "wedgie" like a Hanse 505 is very illustrative -- these boats are probably more different from each other than either is from a full-keeler.

Dashew's Sundeer actually has a few things in common with traditional full-keelers -- narrow beam, fairly slack bilges, giving minimal form stability. And fairly shallow draft. The rig is fairly low. But he puts the volume of a 45 footer into 65 feet, with a 65 foot waterline. Very light, fully balsa cored construction. With the beam of a 45 footer, he has an extremely easily driven hull, requiring very little power to produce tons of speed…

Dashew's type of boat .. are great for making tons of miles on a long passage with minimal effort; great contrast to the exhausting job of keeping a wedgie up to speed in ocean conditions.
I am very confused with tour notion of wedgies (Hanse 505) and your contradictory statement that the Boreal 44 has a ” fairly conservative hull”.









In fact both hulls are based on the Open solo racing solo boat concept (that’s what you call an Wedgie?) with a similar length/beam ratio and almost all the beam pulled back (what gives necessarily a large transom).

Yes I agree that this concept has nothing to do with the Dashews concept but you give the idea that the Dashew concept is a more easily driven boat, I mean for a solo sailor or a couple and that is not true. If that was the case solo open racers would follow that concept. In fact it was tried several times, I mean narrower boats kind of Dashew concept and it failed every time: They were slower and more difficult to sail do to a bigger heel angle, less overall stability (a stable platform) and more roll downwind.



Off course I do not mean in all circumstances, I mean circumnavigation races and transats. On a circumnavigation against the prevailing winds the Dashew type of hull would have advantages and that’s why the boat that has the record time of that particular circumnavigation has an hull more close to the Dashew’s boats than to the Open racers (even so more beamier than Dashew's boats).

The solo open racer’s type of hull is just more polyvalent and better on most types of sailing and occasions. After all cruisers that circumnavigate and cross oceans follow the trade winds, don’t go deliberately against them.


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"Wedgies" are completely different -- all that beam aft increases wetted surface. You get a lot of form stability, so you can carry a lot of canvas with minimal heeling. Which you need to do, to overcome the resistance from all that wetted surface. "Wedgies" are typically mainsail-driven, with small, self-tacking headsails. They are good for blasting from port to port on high speed day sails. Less so for ocean voyages (although I would never say unsuitable, of course -- I would still far prefer one of these to a full-keeler). The great beam aft gives a twitchy motion at sea, the flat forefeet make for pounding, .. On top of that, the high SA/D required to deal with the wetted surface of a wedgie reduces efficiency in stronger conditions, and the little foretriangles don't give you any sail plan options.
The beam aft only increases significantly wet surface drag on particular circumstances (wave drag). Most of the wet surface has to do directly with weight of the boat and the surface of the appendices (keel and rudder).
Wedgies have smart keels and narrow hulls, they are also very light, so the wet surface is really small. The waterplane of those boats is asymmetrical and has nothing to do with the max beam of the boat. Have a look at the waterplane of a hugely beamy Open 60 and what you will see is a very narrow waterplane.



Or these two old drawings by Finot comparing the wet surface of a narrow boat with a beamy one:





Regarding being mainsail driven, I would agree with you if we were talking some years back, now the tendency is quite the opposite and the tendency follows again the open solo racer rig concept, with a mast almost at the centre of the boat, several headsails and a relatively small main.

Have a look at the Oceanis 45 (Finot/Conq):



The Hanse 505 as a mast position similar to the one of the Boreal 44 (slightly ahead of the keel):





In what concerns this concept not to be suited for ocean voyages or the great beam aft giving them a twitchy motion at sea you could not be more wrong. These are the hull forms (beamy, beam brought back, two rudders) that have a more solid and less twitchy motion, from a beam reach to downwind sailing. The solo racers are designed to be sailed at full blast on autopilot requiring minimum adjustments and that’s why this hull shape is particularly adapted to voyage boats and that’s why most of them use it on their voyage sailboats: Garcia, Allures, OVNI, Cigale, Boreal, RM, all use this type of hull and they all are very light boats, Wedgies I would say.

If you look at an OVNI designed 10 years ago (already beamy and with a large transom) and a contemporary one you will see in what direction goes the design of voyage boats:





Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's why you see a lot of wedgies in the Med, and quite a few in the Baltic, but very, very few up here in the North Atlantic.
You see wedgies in the med because it is the dominant tendency in what regards main use cruising sailboat hull shape, the one with overall better results and therefore the one that is used on mass production cruisers. Curiously I would say that if most cruisers didn’t turn the engine on when going directly upwind, the Med (and the Baltic) would be locations were this kind of boat (as well as cats) will be doing worst. Upwind sailing on nasty short steep waves is the condition where these boats have the worst performance and the only one where they are more uncomfortable then narrower boats.

That’s why if you look to Italian sailboats you will find that they are mostly not wedgies, but maximized upwind boats. The same can be said regarding Danish , Finn and Swedish boats, for the same reasons: mostly Baltic sailing where the conditions are not very different from the med.

Regarding not seeing wedgies (there) on the North Atlantic I guess that it has more to do with the British conservative streak regarding sailboat design….they just need more time to change. Lots of Boreal, Allures, OVNI and Garcia sailing on very high latitudes…most owners that buy them have the dream of doing that and are buying those boats precisely because they are designed for sailing on the North Atlantic and high latitudes.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:03   #259
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

No way do I ever want a Wedgie…

Mark
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:08   #260
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
No way do I ever want a Wedgie…

Mark
A cat is just a maximized super Wedgie

I don't understand why dockhead call that to the type of sailboats with hulls influenced by solo racers, but it should have some kind of logic...I suppose.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:36   #261
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
One great achievement of the industry has been to offer far more boat for the money than you got in those days, making our sport accessible to people who could dream of it in 1983. The list price of a new Hanse 345, which has more interior volume than the Pearson, is 86,900 euros! That includes fully equipped galley, sails, etc.

So clearly the fruits of value engineering in this industry are going mostly to the consumer -- a great thing.
But common sense tells you that in order to decrease the selling price of a boat to that level you have to make cuts. I think part of those cuts made makes sense when you consider the percent of a boat's life it sits tied to a dock. And when it's not, what type of sailing does the average owner do when he or she takes it out?

I've heard boat show goers comment often about big cockpits for entertaining and great 'kitchens' for cooking. I can't remember one comment about sailing to a destination, even down the coast. The oohs and ahhs are always about looks and dockside activities you can enjoy with your new boat.

Granite countertops, stainless appliances, European-style cabinets and a flat screen TV in a boat? Sure, because that's what gets people to buy.

"Oh boy dear! I can watch CSI Galapagos while you're in your beautiful kitchen cooking up those flying fish! Isn't sailing great!"
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Old 20-02-2015, 12:05   #262
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
But here is the point others seem to be missing. There WERE inexpensive production boats back in the old days also.

One could buy a Bayliner, Chrysler, AMC, Bombadier, Tanzer, Grampian, Paceship, and many other long-lost brands of sailboats back then.

THESE boats were the equivalent of today's Hunters, Catalina's, etc.

Everybody looks past those boats as if they didn't exist and pollute the rosy view of the great days of design and build of yore.

I will take the worse new Hunter now any day over a new Bayliner or Chrysler back then. Comparatively, the Hunter is indeed a world-girdler.

Mark
Well, I can't comment -- I just don't know these boats at all. I didn't even know Bayliner ever made a sailboat (it's a fairly horrifying thought, knowing their power boats ). The cruising boats I knew in the '70's and '80's are Morgans and Pearsons and Tayanas and Cals and that sort of thing.

I did actually own a Chrysler, back in the '70's -- but it was a dinghy, a Man O' War, a little piece of carp, but I had an enormous amount of fun in it. I didn't know they made cruising boats.
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Old 20-02-2015, 12:09   #263
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
But common sense tells you that in order to decrease the selling price of a boat to that level you have to make cuts. I think part of those cuts made makes sense when you consider the percent of a boat's life it sits tied to a dock. And when it's not, what type of sailing does the average owner do when he or she takes it out?

I've heard boat show goers comment often about big cockpits for entertaining and great 'kitchens' for cooking. I can't remember one comment about sailing to a destination, even down the coast. The oohs and ahhs are always about looks and dockside activities you can enjoy with your new boat.

Granite countertops, stainless appliances, European-style cabinets and a flat screen TV in a boat? Sure, because that's what gets people to buy.

"Oh boy dear! I can watch CSI Galapagos while you're in your beautiful kitchen cooking up those flying fish! Isn't sailing great!"
Sure, but what's really wrong with that, if that's the way the potential buyer intends to use the boat? Horses for courses.

Even circumnavigators spend 90% of their time at anchor or at a dock.

For those (like me) who care a whole lot about sailing, and sail thousands of miles a year, there are other boats on the market.

But even I care about how nice the galley is, how well suited the boat is to having a party on board, how comfortable the salon is for everyday living. I mostly live aboard, so I care very much about these things -- the boat's my home, on top of being my magic carpet to take me across great expanses of water.
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Old 20-02-2015, 12:10   #264
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
A cat is just a maximized super Wedgie

I don't understand why dockhead call that to the type of sailboats with hulls influenced by solo racers, but it should have some kind of logic...I suppose.
Because they're wedge-shaped, instead of boat-shaped
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Old 20-02-2015, 12:18   #265
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Well, I can't comment -- I just don't know these boats at all. I didn't even know Bayliner ever made a sailboat (it's a fairly horrifying thought, knowing their power boats ). The cruising boats I knew in the '70's and '80's are Morgans and Pearsons and Tayanas and Cals and that sort of thing.
My point was that there were inexpensive production boats then that filled the same market and price niches of the inexpensive production boats today.

The Morgans, Pearsons, Tayanas and Cals were not those. They would be considered a mid-tier, mid-priced production boat today (Tayana was quite expensive, actually).

So to ignore that these boats existed then, while conflating today's boats filling that niche with the lack of "BWB's", or even with today's "BWB's", doesn't make sense.

Yes, Bayliner made several sailboat models.

Mark
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Old 20-02-2015, 12:28   #266
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I am very confused with tour notion of wedgies (Hanse 505) and your contradictory statement that the Boreal 44 has a ” fairly conservative hull”.









In fact both hulls are based on the Open solo racing solo boat concept (that’s what you call an Wedgie?) with a similar length/beam ratio and almost all the beam pulled back (what gives necessarily a large transom).

Yes I agree that this concept has nothing to do with the Dashews concept but you give the idea that the Dashew concept is a more easily driven boat, I mean for a solo sailor or a couple and that is not true. If that was the case solo open racers would follow that concept. In fact it was tried several times, I mean narrower boats kind of Dashew concept and it failed every time: They were slower and more difficult to sail do to a bigger heel angle, less overall stability (a stable platform) and more roll downwind.



Off course I do not mean in all circumstances, I mean circumnavigation races and transats. On a circumnavigation against the prevailing winds the Dashew type of hull would have advantages and that’s why the boat that has the record time of that particular circumnavigation has an hull more close to the Dashew’s boats than to the Open racers (even so more beamier than Dashew's boats).

The solo open racer’s type of hull is just more polyvalent and better on most types of sailing and occasions. After all cruisers that circumnavigate and cross oceans follow the trade winds, don’t go deliberately against them.




The beam aft only increases significantly wet surface drag on particular circumstances (wave drag). Most of the wet surface has to do directly with weight of the boat and the surface of the appendices (keel and rudder).
Wedgies have smart keels and narrow hulls, they are also very light, so the wet surface is really small. The waterplane of those boats is asymmetrical and has nothing to do with the max beam of the boat. Have a look at the waterplane of a hugely beamy Open 60 and what you will see is a very narrow waterplane.



Or these two old drawings by Finot comparing the wet surface of a narrow boat with a beamy one:





Regarding being mainsail driven, I would agree with you if we were talking some years back, now the tendency is quite the opposite and the tendency follows again the open solo racer rig concept, with a mast almost at the centre of the boat, several headsails and a relatively small main.

Have a look at the Oceanis 45 (Finot/Conq):



The Hanse 505 as a mast position similar to the one of the Boreal 44 (slightly ahead of the keel):





In what concerns this concept not to be suited for ocean voyages or the great beam aft giving them a twitchy motion at sea you could not be more wrong. These are the hull forms (beamy, beam brought back, two rudders) that have a more solid and less twitchy motion, from a beam reach to downwind sailing. The solo racers are designed to be sailed at full blast on autopilot requiring minimum adjustments and that’s why this hull shape is particularly adapted to voyage boats and that’s why most of them use it on their voyage sailboats: Garcia, Allures, OVNI, Cigale, Boreal, RM, all use this type of hull and they all are very light boats, Wedgies I would say.

If you look at an OVNI designed 10 years ago (already beamy and with a large transom) and a contemporary one you will see in what direction goes the design of voyage boats:







You see wedgies in the med because it is the dominant tendency in what regards main use cruising sailboat hull shape, the one with overall better results and therefore the one that is used on mass production cruisers. Curiously I would say that if most cruisers didn’t turn the engine on when going directly upwind, the Med (and the Baltic) would be locations were this kind of boat (as well as cats) will be doing worst. Upwind sailing on nasty short steep waves is the condition where these boats have the worst performance and the only one where they are more uncomfortable then narrower boats.

That’s why if you look to Italian sailboats you will find that they are mostly not wedgies, but maximized upwind boats. The same can be said regarding Danish , Finn and Swedish boats, for the same reasons: mostly Baltic sailing where the conditions are not very different from the med.

Regarding not seeing wedgies (there) on the North Atlantic I guess that it has more to do with the British conservative streak regarding sailboat design….they just need more time to change. Lots of Boreal, Allures, OVNI and Garcia sailing on very high latitudes…most owners that buy them have the dream of doing that and are buying those boats precisely because they are designed for sailing on the North Atlantic and high latitudes.

Well, I'm not going to engage all of this very voluminous argument -- unlike some people, I have a realistically modest opinion of my own knowledge of the principles of naval architecture and don't want to write a bunch of nonsense which doesn't help anyone

I will just make a couple of random comments:

1. Whether or not wedgies are a "dominant tendency" or not remains to be seen. They are "in fashion" with certain (not all) makers, which does not mean that this is where most cruising boat designs are going, long term. It is good to see that Polux now acknowledges that they are not inherently best for all purposes. In my opinion, they are good for some things, but not so much for the kind of sailing I do. My guess is that they are in fashion with the very cheapest makers (Dehler and Bene) 99% percent because simply you get more hull volume out of a given LOA and weight of GRP, which is crowning criterion in selling large quantities of boats. And not for any other reason, not for speed, sailing qualities, or anything else. Just a guess, but I would put dollars down against doughnuts on it.

2. Racing across oceans and cruising short handed across oceans are completely different things. This or that quality which makes a boat good for the former may be entirely irrelevant to the latter.

3. I will leave it to others with greater expertise than mine, to debate the wetted surface versus hull flatness and beam drawn aft issue. I know no more than what I have read.

4. The Boreal is a different hull form from a true wedgie. It has a lovely spring to its sheer (rather than the dead sheer of wedgies); it has a deeply shaped forefoot, it has more rocker, and it is narrow aft at the waterline. I can't and won't attempt to prove it, but it's very different to my (unexpert) eye.

5. Concerning the evolving role of mainsails: I'm glad to see some backing off from the tendency towards little, self-tacking headsails, set by Dehler. I didn't know about that.
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Old 20-02-2015, 13:18   #267
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Also an improtant factor was (is?) the quality of the production crew at the time of the layup and fitting out of a new boat.
Sounds like it still is...

Some of the failings among today's builders have to pretty blatant, for an industry cheerleader like SAIL magazine to mention this in their summation of the offerings at the Annapolis Show last fall:

Quote:
On the other hand, however, there were also some of the most untidy electrical installations our systems expert, Nigel Calder, had seen in years, several of which did not comply with current ISO and ABYC standards. In fact, Calder suspects some builders laid off too many of their skilled workers during the recession and are now having trouble getting back up to speed.

Best Boats 2015: Morris Ocean Series 48 GT | Sail Magazine
And, I'm guessing such shortcomings are not confined solely to the configuration/installation of electrical systems.... ;-)
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Old 20-02-2015, 14:39   #268
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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So why do so many here wax on about the good ole days when these boats were cheap as chips, sold in the gross to every mom and pop, and everyone was out sailing around the world in them?

While lamenting that those days are gone now?

Mark
Actually tghe old boats were not so cheap. I still have the price list for my 1962/63 Columbia 29 and it was delivered for just $4995. That was a chunk of change in 1963, for a boat that is not quite a yacht.
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Old 20-02-2015, 14:47   #269
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Absolutely not inexpensive. I don't think that even included sails!

One great achievement of the industry has been to offer far more boat for the money than you got in those days, making our sport accessible to people who could dream of it in 1983. The list price of a new Hanse 345, which has more interior volume than the Pearson, is 86,900 euros! That includes fully equipped galley, sails, etc.

So clearly the fruits of value engineering in this industry are going mostly to the consumer -- a great thing.
Not quite a fair match up, a 42 foot boat in 1983 was a BIG boat and a lot lower production.
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Old 20-02-2015, 14:53   #270
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Actually tghe old boats were not so cheap. I still have the price list for my 1962/63 Columbia 29 and it was delivered for just $4995. That was a chunk of change in 1963, for a boat that is not quite a yacht.
That's not bad - just under $40,000 in today's dollars. I'm not sure there is really anything comparative in today's market?

Mark
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