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Old 20-02-2015, 07:15   #241
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I think you are wearing your rose-colored glasses?

The general public never were ocean-crossing in large numbers back then, and those who were were not doing it in Pearsons by-the-large. Pearson built a lot of coastal cruisers that were more affordable, but hardly budget boats - and mom and pop were not buying them in droves. The sum number of all of their boats sold in that era is probably much lower than a single year's worth of Beneteau now.

They were never built as bullet-proof bombs, and had their corner-cutting too. Over time, as they got more affordable as used boats, people started using them for longer-distance cruising. Most have found they need significant reinforcing and heavier equipment to do this type of cruising.

So to answer your question, the Clint and Everette Pearsons of today are called Beneteau, etc.

In fact, these builders have done far more than the Pearsons in getting people out on boats - both in numbers and price. And I'll bet more people have gone RTW and done extensive cruising in them than anyone has in Pearsons.

Mark
I have to agree with you but I also know what people think when they are shopping for used boats. The old Pearson 422 or 424 make pretty good cruisers when they have been fixed up as they are reasonably sized, large cockpits, good in a seaway and much more good storage than a modern Beneteau.
On the other hand you are right the Benni's have been cranked out in numbers that Pearson could only dream of. I also agree that there are many more Benni's out there doing passages that Pearsons but not all Benni's are created equal so if you do want to do extensive offshore cruising in one you should do your homework as there are a few that are designed and built much better for this purpose.
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Old 20-02-2015, 07:22   #242
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I have to agree with you but I also know what people think when they are shopping for used boats. The old Pearson 422 or 424 make pretty good cruisers when they have been fixed up as they are reasonably sized, large cockpits, good in a seaway and much more good storage than a modern Beneteau.
On the other hand you are right the Benni's have been cranked out in numbers that Pearson could only dream of. I also agree that there are many more Benni's out there doing passages that Pearsons but not all Benni's are created equal so if you do want to do extensive offshore cruising in one you should do your homework as there are a few that are designed and built much better for this purpose.
No argument, but everything you say about Benne and their range of boats could have been said about Pearson in the 1960-80's.

I wonder what the cost in today's dollars was for those 422 and 424 when new? I bet they weren't "everyman's boats".

Nostalgia seems to cloud facts in these discussions. Back then, every mom and pop were criss-crossing oceans in inexpensive, yet bulletproof, brand new boats - riding out continual severe gales while comfortably eating their Spam sandwiches during the many non-event rollovers.

Something that just isn't available anymore in today's world...

Mark
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Old 20-02-2015, 07:45   #243
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

When I bought my first boat in 1982 (a great, older, Cherubini Hunter 33), everyone told me that boats "built back in the 60's" were stronger because "people didn't realize how strong GRP was, back then". In the 90's, I heard people say that boats "built back in the 70's and 80's" were stronger because "people didn't realize the properties of GRP and overbuilt them back then". In the 2000's, I heard people saying that "back in the 80's and 90's, boats were built stronger because people didn't know how strong GRP was and now they know so they can build them lighter and cheaper". Etc, Etc, Etc.

My older Hunter, which I still own, used to be thought of as a lightweight. Now it is one of the great "older, heavier, solidly built boats that they don't build anymore". I am sure that, in the decades BEFORE I bought that boat, people were talking about how much better boats built decades before those days, were.

There seems to be a great reverence for older boats, no matter when the discussion is held. So, just hold on for ten or twenty years, and we will hear how well the 2015 boats were built, "back before people knew how strong fiberglass was, and when they built real BWB's , before they started cutting corners". It's the flip side of progress!
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Old 20-02-2015, 07:45   #244
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Hey I was just able to answer my question about the cost of a new 424 in 1983. The answer is that the stripped, base boat price was $131,000 - which correlates to $310,000 in today's dollar.

Again, this is the base price - which apparently didn't include luxury items like a stove, windlass, compass, sailcover, autopilot, battery charger, refrigeration, and many others.

Doesn't sound like an inexpensive boat to me.

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Old 20-02-2015, 08:01   #245
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by contrail View Post
When I bought my first boat in 1982 (a great, older, Cherubini Hunter 33), everyone told me that boats "built back in the 60's" were stronger because "people didn't realize how strong GRP was, back then". In the 90's, I heard people say that boats "built back in the 70's and 80's" were stronger because "people didn't realize the properties of GRP and overbuilt them back then". In the 2000's, I heard people saying that "back in the 80's and 90's, boats were built stronger because people didn't know how strong GRP was and now they know so they can build them lighter and cheaper". Etc, Etc, Etc. . . . .
That is actually true, however, and in both cases.

The value engineering of GRP structures was a slow process, and overbuilding of GRP boat hulls reduced only gradually, over decades. This is to a great degree real progress, because reducing overbuilding reduces weight, and weight is bad, and light is fast. Sometimes even real strength is not reduced, when the layup is reduced in areas where it's not needed, and increased where on the contrary it is needed -- you can get an overall better result when you actually engineer the structure, rather than just glopping on more layup until it couldn't possibly be not strong enough, which is actually the way early GRP boats were built, with no engineering whatsoever.

But how much strength is strong enough depends on for what. Not much is needed for typical trade winds or coastal sailing, but in other circumstances what seems strong enough may suddenly seem very different. And when you start hitting stuff, all bets are off. I love Beneteaus and think they're great boats, but I saw a photo of the shattered bows of a recent model, after a minor collision, which showed a layup which seemed to be only 10mm or so -- in the bows. I'm not sure that would be "strong enough" by the standards of many people. So it's certainly possible to take this process too far.
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:05   #246
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by contrail View Post
When I bought my first boat in 1982 (a great, older, Cherubini Hunter 33), everyone told me that boats "built back in the 60's" were stronger because "people didn't realize how strong GRP was, back then". In the 90's, I heard people say that boats "built back in the 70's and 80's" were stronger because "people didn't realize the properties of GRP and overbuilt them back then". In the 2000's, I heard people saying that "back in the 80's and 90's, boats were built stronger because people didn't know how strong GRP was and now they know so they can build them lighter and cheaper". Etc, Etc, Etc.

My older Hunter, which I still own, used to be thought of as a lightweight. Now it is one of the great "older, heavier, solidly built boats that they don't build anymore". I am sure that, in the decades BEFORE I bought that boat, people were talking about how much better boats built decades before those days, were.

There seems to be a great reverence for older boats, no matter when the discussion is held. So, just hold on for ten or twenty years, and we will hear how well the 2015 boats were built, "back before people knew how strong fiberglass was, and when they built real BWB's , before they started cutting corners". It's the flip side of progress!
Well think about it a bit as many older boats were in fact built much heavier than new ones and were in fact stronger. I was talking with a British surveyor and he told me that for the first time in his life he was surveying new boats that did indeed have a finite lifespan. Others on this site have suggested that new boats are like new cars and will be ground up after they have worn out in 20-25 years. In the end who cares really, there are many old boats that make excellent passage makers and new ones that also do the job better than ever. There are tons of choices so do our homework and find something you can fall in love with and just have good times!
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:21   #247
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Hey I was just able to answer my question about the cost of a new 424 in 1983. The answer is that the stripped, base boat price was $131,000 - which correlates to $310,000 in today's dollar.

Again, this is the base price - which apparently didn't include luxury items like a stove, windlass, compass, sailcover, autopilot, battery charger, refrigeration, and many others.

Doesn't sound like an inexpensive boat to me.

Mark
Absolutely not inexpensive. I don't think that even included sails!

One great achievement of the industry has been to offer far more boat for the money than you got in those days, making our sport accessible to people who could dream of it in 1983. The list price of a new Hanse 345, which has more interior volume than the Pearson, is 86,900 euros! That includes fully equipped galley, sails, etc.

So clearly the fruits of value engineering in this industry are going mostly to the consumer -- a great thing.
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:21   #248
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Hey I was just able to answer my question about the cost of a new 424 in 1983. The answer is that the stripped, base boat price was $131,000 - which correlates to $310,000 in today's dollar.

Again, this is the base price - which apparently didn't include luxury items like a stove, windlass, compass, sailcover, autopilot, battery charger, refrigeration, and many others.

Doesn't sound like an inexpensive boat to me.

Mark
it was a pretty expensive boat for the time.... When I enlisted in the Army in 1969, my base pay was 135.00 a month and my wife got another 65.00 allowance.. My first house purchased in 1972 cost me 23k..
In the early 80s, I worked in a body shop making good wages at around 10.00 to 12.00 per hour.....
So at middle class, I was making around 20 to 25k per year.... there's no way I could have bought that boat.........
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:24   #249
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Hey I was just able to answer my question about the cost of a new 424 in 1983. The answer is that the stripped, base boat price was $131,000 - which correlates to $310,000 in today's dollar.

Again, this is the base price - which apparently didn't include luxury items like a stove, windlass, compass, sailcover, autopilot, battery charger, refrigeration, and many others.

Doesn't sound like an inexpensive boat to me.

Mark
Ouch. Our 1st Ericson 38 was an '81 model, and it was 5 years old when we had it. I heard back then that the price new in '84 was in the $115K range (friend had paid that much in San Francisco), equipped-sail away. That would be $272K now, for a coastal cruiser. A new Pearson 424 much better value back then. We looked at one for the 1st time last year in Annapolis; I liked it, wife thought too plain inside.

There is a list of offshore boats here, and Ericson didn't make the list, but Pearson does.

Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

There is a u-tube video of a guy single-handling an 80's Ericson 34 from Bay Area to Hawaii and back, but his weather was pretty good for most of those 5000 miles. Good presentation though.

In our case, battling to windward during the Memorial weekend storm at Catalina, decided to motorsail closer to the island to stay out of the larger stuff and round the west end to get to the backside, and the boat, although not a shallow bilge design, cavitated quite a bit, after cresting each wave top. Slow going. Got to Cat harbor at 3:00 am, and the whole entrance and out to sea for a mile at least was all white foam, like soap suds.
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:25   #250
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Absolutely not inexpensive. I don't think that even included sails!

One great achievement of the industry has been to offer far more boat for the money than you got in those days, making our sport accessible to people who could dream of it in 1983. The list price of a new Hanse 345, which has more interior volume than the Pearson, is 86,900 euros! That includes fully equipped galley, sails, etc.

So clearly the fruits of value engineering in this industry are going mostly to the consumer -- a great thing.
So why do so many here wax on about the good ole days when these boats were cheap as chips, sold in the gross to every mom and pop, and everyone was out sailing around the world in them?

While lamenting that those days are gone now?

Mark
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:30   #251
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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So why do so many here wax on about the good ole days when these boats were cheap as chips, sold in the gross to every mom and pop, and everyone was out sailing around the world in them?

Mark
Now you've caught on Mark, as most people on this forum dont own a boat and are blowing smoke. but thats another issue............
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:46   #252
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
So why do so many here wax on about the good ole days when these boats were cheap as chips, sold in the gross to every mom and pop, and everyone was out sailing around the world in them?

While lamenting that those days are gone now?

Mark
Well, they would be wrong

Except I'm not quite sure anyone actually says that . . .
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Old 20-02-2015, 09:04   #253
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Now thats a more practical vessel. Some catamaran features.
Yes, the Boreal 44 as all the boats based on open solo racers (most today's mass production cruisers) have some features that are associated with cats: Huge beam, huge hull form stability, less roll, sail with small angles of heel, big interior space. They have those characteristics plus a max RM at a big heeling angle, good reserve stability, a decent AVS and an inverted stability much smaller than the upright stability.

They try to join the positive things of two worlds, monohulls and multihulls.

Off course, multihulls have an even bigger form and overall stability, sail with even smaller angles of heel, have a bigger interior (cats) can be lighter (no ballast) but have no reserve stability and an inverted stability as big as the upright stability.
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Old 20-02-2015, 09:15   #254
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Except I'm not quite sure anyone actually says that . . .
Hmmm. We must be reading different threads.

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Old 20-02-2015, 09:44   #255
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Also an improtant factor was (is?) the quality of the production crew at the time of the layup and fitting out of a new boat. As my first boat was US27 I did a lot of research on the brand and came up with interesting info. While it was a subsidiary of Bayliner (yeah, I know) it had separate facilities and management and therefore was able to maintain different standards than its parent company at its 3 plants. But even within these 3 plants there were significant differences due to the quality of the production crew.

I remember reading a post in the brand affiliated forum by a guy who used to work in the East Coast plant and he said the top management used give crap to the West Coast plant as those guys would come up with inferior product due to their high employee turnover and lesser level of skills of the incoming crews, mostly young kids out of trade schools. So it came to be that supposedly identical boats were very different in their end result although this would not be noticed at first by the buyers. But may be it was that difference that led to the brand's folding in mid 80s together with general decline of sailboat production at the time.

But I lucked out and my model was East Coast built and very well put together. When I was changing the through hull transducer with the help of my boatbulider friend he was amazed to see the thick layup of the run of the bilge near the keel. And he lamented the fact that we even had to do it as he found the through hull totally intact and the original hole still looking as good as new with no water penetration whatsoever after 30 years of use.

I truly miss that sturdy boat but its prior neglect and the need for extensive TLC together with her size made it impractical to put any $$ and work into her considering my needs and wants. The guy who bought her from me later on abandoned her on a mooring where she sat untouched (!) for the next 4 years with may be a few add'l inches of water in the bilge. And by that time she was about 35 years old.
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