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Old 18-02-2015, 10:31   #166
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
For someone not buying into the price justification thing....you sure seemed post a lot of pricing details that seem to disprove your point on the other hand.....
How do you think I arrived at my position? By not knowing price/value formulas of particular boats/brands? Since we don't live in a communistic society price always will have to be taken into account when figuring out what best for one's needs.
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:36   #167
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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So we need to stop using the Blue Water Boat BS label and change it to "Blue Water Cruiser/Sailor" because the person, his mindset, and preparations are just as or even more important than the boat! I agree.
Yes, we should define "Blue Water Sailor" and we should also define "Blue Water Ready" - that being doing the necessary things to prepare a boat for an open ocean voyage. But I still see a value in defining "Blue Water Boat." If these discussions are to ever come to any meaningful conclusion, you pretty much have to decide on how the terms will be defined.
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:38   #168
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Re: Defining the term "Bluewater Boat"

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Before anyone can answer any question regarding bluewater boats, "bluewater boat" needs to be defined, that is if a group ever wants to reach any meaningful conclusion.
After wading through the neverending litany of Bluewater vs. Production Boat threads which remain a staple of sailing forums going on close to 20 years now, the only "meaningful conclusion" I'm able to reach, is:

Many folks - on both sides of the aisle - are gonna simply Believe What They Want to Believe...

:-))
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:42   #169
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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If these discussions are to ever come to any meaningful conclusion.
Ha ha ha.....
Well there's the problem right there...a false assumption.
Do a search for the words "Blue Water Boat" on the Cruising Forum search and you will quickly realize it's not the destination it's the journey with these type of posts. Kinda like the Anchor threads. Or the How much does it cost to cruise threads....or the....or the....
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:52   #170
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Re: Defining the term "Bluewater Boat"

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Many folks - on both sides of the aisle - are gonna simply Believe What They Want to Believe...
Exactly. So you are welcome to come to a "meaningful conclusion" for yourself, and ONLY for yourself. And that should be enough. If you are expecting everyone in the sailing community to validate your conclusions, by agreeing with you...

Let's just say, don't hold your breath on that.
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:53   #171
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

Wait. Are you guys telling me that it's more fun to argue than it is to come to an agreement?

Who knew?
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:06   #172
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Mistakes get made. It happens. It also happened 50-60yrs ago.

I would never buy the first boat of a new design. I'm sure if you went back and talked to the guys who bought the first of the fiberglass BW battle wagons there were some teething pains too. They might be different teething pains but I'm sure they were there.

It would be very unusual for a boat that has been in production for a while to have such an obvious design flaw as you describe.
I don't keep track of this stuff like some guys here do but I think the Benni 43 Cyclades and their sister ships of which a ton were built had an extremely substandard support system for the rudder stock that lead to failures. Some felt the 50 was also substandard construction in the same area and one of them sunk last year offshore. These are not teething pains, they are just lousy designs and poorly built substructures.
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:11   #173
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Re: Defining the term "Bluewater Boat"

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Exactly. So you are welcome to come to a "meaningful conclusion" for yourself, and ONLY for yourself. And that should be enough. If you are expecting everyone in the sailing community to validate your conclusions, by agreeing with you...

Let's just say, don't hold your breath on that.
Validating your conclusions on this site my dear is a bit like herding cats, not completely impossible but improbable to say the least.
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:21   #174
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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I dont know? , as it sure looks like close to a mid 80s Open Ocean IOR design.. not as pointy on the rear but pretty close.....
I agree. It is just an old design and I don't believe it to be better or cheaper (equipped the same way) than for instance an OVNI 395 or an Allures 39.9. If someone wants a OVNI with a fixed keel I believe the guys from Alubat will think the guy is crazy but I bet that in the end they will do it. They do the Cigale line that has a fixed keel. I bet that the OVNI or the Allures will have a better and more knowledgeable built.



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Old 18-02-2015, 11:23   #175
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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But I still see a value in defining "Blue Water Boat."
There is a point where any answer is wrong.......
and also any boat is wrong, as much as its right...........

If I moved to the country, and had to pick up a couple bales of hay for the horses, you wouldnt see me buying a "Prius" to do so, a pickup truck would be more the answer. and even though the truck with horse crap on the floorboards might be great for the ranch, its not the greatest move to take the wife to the Opera.
And even though there are thousands of different cars to purchase, I'd kind of like to find an older 55 chevy to restore as a family car, and it would be fine if it were a station wagon..

So in this boat world we live in, there are thousands of boats to use for different uses and ventures.. So my choice, like an older 1955 chevy that will not only get the job done, but its got a little spice to add to it, My FIRST 42, and I'd love to "pimp" it our with full carbon sails and a great set of graphics on the side.

The westsail we all know is a proven cruiser, its not fast, hobby-horses to weather, and kinda cramped a little but when you see a fully decked out W32 , all varnished up and under sail, she's as pretty as they get..
And if you installed a "Junk" rig, its that much better..........

Fact is, the right person could round the world on a "sailboard".. would I want to do so, not really. but there are many people sailing around with boats I wouldnt cross a lake with, let alone cross an ocean with..

so back to picking the right boat for the right purpose, like the truck and the Prius, Going to Mexico from the west coast of the US, probably any production boat built.. Doing the inland passage over the top, using a light-weight "J" boat might not be the proper thing to do..
So as much as the right boat to use for the purpose, you can also use the wrong boat, like taking my wife to the opera in the ranch truck, even though the truck will do the job, It dosent fit the chore.

For me, I like cruising in my "Hot Rod" , and at times it might be a little rough, wont sail dead down wind, and a little pushed to sail it short handed.
But I Damn Sure Look Good Doing It.............................
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:40   #176
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
An interesting thing is that you'll get a very different picture depending on the native tongue of the people you ask...

Ask the French what their ultimate BWB is, and they'll present you with an RM, and Allures, or if they're of a more conservative bend, an OVNI... It they want to go extreme they'll propose a Boreal.
All boats that in nothing look like the image many people here seem to have of what makes a proper BWB.

It's also quite interesting to see what kinds of boats yacht designers themselves are sailing. Often they sail designs that are even more "extreme" then what they design for the big yards.
Yes I agree on both counts except that it is not the French only that sail those boats as voyage boats. Many if not most OVNI, Allures, RM and Boreal are sold out of France now. There at least on Boreal sold to an American.

True the concept of fast voyage boats, or the centerboard aluminium concept has not reached America yet and I don't know if it will.

Regarding designers drawing for himself offshore "extreme" sailboats the best case I know was Finot/Conq in the late 80's with Cigale/Levrier des meres. The boat is not very different from the actual Cigale and was an incredibly advanced design for its time. In this case "extreme" means only a more advanced and better sailboat, a "future" sailboat. It was designed as a personal sailboat for the NAs. Alubat (that builds OVNI) built the boat and decided to produce it as a paralel line. By the way there is also an American that owns for many years a Cigale and he says only great things about his sailboat.
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:46   #177
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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To me, any boat can take you anywhere so long as it's properly prepared. Now, having said that, the boat i would feel most comfortable in has either an encapsulated modified fin keel and full skeg, or a full keel. Why? Not because I'm worried about the keel or rudder falling off or any of the other nonsense that gets spewed out, but because I feel more confident in the boat being able to handle MY screwups without severe damage. For example, running aground or getting the rudder (or skeg) caught on a line. The older design gives ME a bigger margin for error.

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It is a fact that some modern lightweight boats have had the keels or rudders fall off in the past few years. Quite a few of the owners or passengers on these boats have posted about them here and Sailing Anarchy. I have yet to hear of a PSC owner complaining about the interior coming apart after riding out some heavy weather. I have never heard of one of them losing a rudder, nor have I about any boat with a skeg rudder.
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:54   #178
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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I think this is actually quite true and perceptive.

I would only add to this, however, that it works both ways. I mean, that people in these mostly fairly stupid discussions tend to divide into camps according to how they justify their own choice of boat, which is not the way to actually learn anything.

So the passionate defenders of production boats are just imagining 90%+ of the "attacks" on their choice of boat. In the other 10% of cases, however, there is often a lot of personal choice justification going on, as Don described it.

I wish people could be more mature and stop dividing up into camps -- it does not lead to enlightenment.

This phrase is good: "[W]hat they should be asking is about what boats make good cruisers. . . "

Exactly. And the answer, of course, may be very different for different people.
Talking about production modern boats, do you know two Moody 54 has done the last Hobart in comfort and flying colors? Not that slow too, one of then kept a big battle with an Hanse 495, arriving practically at the same time, but beating the Hanse for a short margin.

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Old 18-02-2015, 12:01   #179
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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It is a fact that some modern lightweight boats have had the keels or rudders fall off in the past few years. Quite a few of the owners or passengers on these boats have posted about them here and Sailing Anarchy. I have yet to hear of a PSC owner complaining about the interior coming apart after riding out some heavy weather. I have never heard of one of them losing a rudder, nor have I about any boat with a skeg rudder.

Define "quite a few". Do you have a specific number in mind? What caused those rudders/keels to fall off? Was there an accident of some sort? A lack of maintenance? Or did the operator of the vessel just go out one day and notice the missing keel or rudder? Rather than purchase a vessel that costs 3-4 times as much, is there some measure that can be taken to strengthen the structure? What are the odds that someone's keel or rudder are going to fall off? I dare say the odds are higher that they will be struck by lightning.

I believe that part of the problem with using internet forums to validate opinions is the generic nature of those supporting opinions. What are the motivations behind those comments?
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Old 18-02-2015, 12:04   #180
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Re: True blue water boat extinction a fait accompli?

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Certainly some common sense here but I believe that we all tend to believe our own bullshit and I mean believe it. The guys who think that heavy long keeled boats are best really believe it just the same as the guys who believe entry level production boats are their best choice, they believe it. The Cat guys are the same but they sometimes approach religion in their beliefs, lol. I don't think people try to justify what they have or what they can afford, I think they have convinced themselves and it is part of their belief system and do you know what....its what makes this forum entertaining, who would tune in here if everyone believed the same stuff.
I don't believe that. I like a lot of boats and very different types. I like my boat (otherwise I would not have chosen it) but it was just the best I could buy for the money and a compromise with my wife. With more money I would have a different boat (for sure) and I am not even sure if it would be a monohull or a multihull, even if for the type of multihulls I like, It would be really much more money.

Boats for me are like pretty women (they have to be pretty), I can fall in love and if it is the case, logic makes not much sense anymore...but there is something better than to be in love?
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