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Old 26-09-2015, 02:58   #91
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntoMyHealth View Post
Yeah, I agree a diagram would help. Also, an experienced instructor. But once you were in the fairway and facing correctly, more throttle should have solved wind and current issues. Just get the boat moving. Search youtube for Captain John skipper tips sailing videos. He has some really good diagram lessons to help get off and into a slip using spring lines.
I'm with you on that one.... first 2 of the 3 rules of ship handling

1/ Make speed your friend

and

2/ A stopped ship is a drifting ship.
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Old 26-09-2015, 04:56   #92
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

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Originally Posted by northoceanbeach View Post
I know it's hard to picture the way I'm describing. I don't know how to do a diagram. The best way to describe it is:

Hold your left hand out like you are shaking hands, that's the boat. For me to exit bring your hand back while moving the back of your had to your left so your fingers are pointed right. Then move your hand across your body to the right.

Al I did was reverse and my stern moved backwards towards the exit, then throttle forward trying to correct it. But even with a wide fairway, to go from reverse to forward and turn to the right, enough to clear the boats in front of me, I need to be backed up almost to the boats behind me, and still either facing forwards or have the bow pointed a little toward the exit. With the stern being kicked toward the exit I will have to try the 270.

I thought the practic out in the open water helped and I tried that again tonight, but it's different when you are in the slips, that when the wind and tide and everything really shows you what you can and can't do.

When I bought the boat there was an outboard attached to the back, even though it had a brand new engine. The owner said it was a temporary fix while he repowered. I talked to the place that dos the work installing the new engine and they said his old one worked fine, he just wanted a new one. I'm starting to think he had the outboard on there to get in and out of the slip, because with an outboard it's easy because it pivots.
Ok, your little hand description there was pretty clever, and it explains what you have to do clearly enough. Ironically, you have to do the exact reverse of what I have to do, and you have prop walk that is the exact reverse of what we have. Funny hey? So if we swap pens, we'll both be fine. Although the trip to the boat from home will be a stinker.

Anyway, the good news is, if we can do it in our monster, you'll be able to do it in yours. Seriously, we just had a look at the below waterline profile of your boat, and it is much like ours, better in some ways, worse in others, but in the same league.

So, like us, your first problem is trying to get some backwards movement, before the prop walk takes over and pulls you in the wrong direction.

What I am about to describe is the exact mirror image (port to starboard) of what I actually do, I am going to reverse it to save you the confusion of trying to understand my description while at the same time reversing everything, so I am now pretending our boat has starboard prop walk, but I need to leave to starboard. I am usually sailing solo, or politely requesting guests to stand back while I do this, it's so much safer.

The way I do this, and our boat weighs 17 tons, so yours should be easier, is I run a springer from the outer end of the finger on our "starboard" side. I centre the helm, then put about 10 degrees to port to counter the prop walk a bit, I look both ways (I reverse into the main entry to our club) then put the boat in reverse, about 750 rpm (10% power). I walk away from the helm at this point,(you'll need something to brace the tiller to do this, I can rely on the friction in our steering system) down the starboard side of the boat, holding the starboard springer and walk to the front of the boat pulling firmly on the springer. Because the springer is on the starboard side the torsional force of pulling from one side is countering the propwalk, plus helping to get the boat moving. (remember, 17 tons, so not a lot of acceleration.) What I find then happens is that, all going well, the boat goes straight backwards. It's 50/50 if I end up going a little to port or starboard, but it doesn't matter as long as it is close to a straight line out of the pen. The aim of the game here is to get some water moving over the rudder without the boat developing rotational momentum. Turning is NOT important at this stage. As soon as I feel the boat is now holding a straight line I toss the springer off the boat onto the finger (all this is well forward of the prop so no risk there), step back to the helm and ensure that the rudder does not bank over to full lock. You DO NOT want full lock, all you get from a full lock rudder at these speeds is a braking effect and that's the last thing you want. All I am aiming to achieve at this point is build up speed in reverse while holding a mainly straight line. Sure, if I am getting a little drift to port from the stern I am going to be happy, but really it won't matter.

Now in my case I am reversing straight towards some rocks. I am not sure if that is better or worse than reversing towards a whole lot of expensive yachts. It is good because all I am going to wreck is my boat, but it is bad because depending on the tide those rocks are either miles away or really, really close. The worst bit with them is, and this is where reversing to boats will be better, is you don't KNOW when you are at the limit of your travel. It would be kind of helpful to be able to clearly see the limit as you approach, as it is I am looking over the side trying to judge the depth.

ANYWAY, I keep going back as far as I dare. Sometimes I come out dead straight, sometimes a little to port, sometimes a little to starboard. Some times it's a little S shape as the prop walk is winning at the start but losing at the boat gains speed. Sometimes a nice little wind gust shows up to make things more interesting. But right at the last minute I put the boat in neutral, give the transmission a second, then put it in forward, 40% to 50% power, give about one whole second for the water direction on the rudder face to change to forward (much easier to detect with a tiller than a wheel setup) then put the helm over to about 70% to starboard. Not too much, you don't want it to stall, but you do want maximum effect for your magical moment where the boat is still going backwards but the engine is blasting away spinning it toward where you want to go. I can pretty well guarantee your boat is going to spin like a top on the spot when you do this. All that backwards momentum is going take two or three seconds to kill off, all the while the rudder and prop are blasting away pushing the stern to port. Seriously, I have done this TOO effectively and nearly ended turning back onto the rocks.

Anyway, sorry for the essay, but that's how I'd tackle it in your situation.

BTW, I'd love to know which approach technique worked for you that you now have that bit sorted.

Matt

P.S. Don't rely on an outboard if you can possible avoid it, they have ways of failing right at the worst possible moments. Dad had one on his 5 ton Van De Stadt 27. His pen required reversing in, usually with a strong wind on the nose. Sure enough, one day the darn thing conked as I was bearing down on the pen in reverse. I am happy to say there was no damage to anyone's boat, but in the ensuing chaos a perfectly good anchor was thrown overboard without it being attached to anything first. Not my finest hour.
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Old 26-09-2015, 05:35   #93
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

I think the OP described the situation quite well...I can totally see it.

I'm wondering if he's using too much helm in reverse. If you turn the tiller too hard, the rudder acts like a brake, and induces no turning. I've seen this a lot with tillers. I suggest doing some reverse tests (away from the dock) to find the optimum tiller angle in reverse. My guess would be about 60 degrees.

The OP had the right idea, a second person to walk the boat down the dock and give a big shove in the right direction. Since you don't need reverse with that method, no prop wash to worry about. But I understand there isn't always someone available. Been there.

This is a real issue, and IMHO does warrant consideration of moving to another dock. At my marina, I moved to a "head to wind" dock, even though it was much shorter than my original dock (shorter than the boat in fact). And when there is a strong breeze opposite to the prevailing direction, like when a storm is approaching, I'm right back to an over the stern wind direction, just like the OP, and its tough getting in/out without a lot of fending.

I consider having a head to wind dock (for the prevailing wind) important enough that I even made a short video of leaving my dock without assistance:

https://youtu.be/8n7mQA-Gw40

You'll notice I give a blast of reverse, since my prop wash is to port, the opposite way I want to turn. Occasionally, I have had to reverse all the way out the channel, if the bow goes the wrong way.
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Old 26-09-2015, 06:03   #94
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

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Originally Posted by hamburking View Post
important enough that I even made a short video of leaving my dock without assistance:

https://youtu.be/8n7mQA-Gw40

You'll notice I give a blast of reverse, since my prop wash is to port, the opposite way I want to turn. Occasionally, I have had to reverse all the way out the channel, if the bow goes the wrong way.
Geez, I hope you are not advocating that technique. That was fraught with risk. One good gust from starboard there and you were going to be watching your boat head off without you. Also, the room you have to manoeuvre there on the port side is probably ten times what the OP is dealing with. You have to move your bow something like 30 degrees to port, not a full right angle turn. No comparison to the OP's situation the way I see it. I am sorry, I do try not to be too critical but when I see a video link posted like this, I don't feel I can stay quiet on the risks. That whole jumping aboard thing after the lines were freed has impending disaster written all over it.

But I have been wrong before.

Matt
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Old 27-09-2015, 03:48   #95
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

Matt, thanks form he advice, thank you everyone. Matt, did you mean, once you put it in forward and really give it throttle to bring he tiller to port, to get it to turn the bow to starboard and got confused since you were trying to reverse everything to make it easy for me? I need to get it to spin on its axis, if I could stay in place an pivot that would be great.

And no, no outboard for me. I sold that immediately along with the mount. I will get this.
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Old 27-09-2015, 04:08   #96
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

Sometimes the answer is......no. (An awkard berth combined with awkward conditions, short handed and with an awkward boat sometimes gives an awkward answer). Being inconvenient don't change that (lol).

But although I do not quite grasp WTF is going on here, my gut says you are a bit away from getting to a no......or installing a bow thruster.

Sent from my NEXUS 5 whilst sitting in my armchair tied to the dock.
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Old 27-09-2015, 04:17   #97
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

I wouldn't say this one is insurmountable. If I can get a 17 tonner out of the pen on my own, with almost exactly the set of challenges, this one is gonna be doable. I'm not saying I'd turn down the offer of a free bow thruster if it came my way, but so far I've survived without it.


Yes, N.O.B, you have interpreted my description correctly. In summary, the trick is to get the engine driving forward, while the boat is still going backwards. This technique is advocated in a couple of posts in this thread, this and the concept of not letting the boat drift, keep it moving. The backwards movement buys you time to get the boat spinning in the direction you need.


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Old 27-09-2015, 13:32   #98
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

So since I am still going backwards, when I go forward I put the til to starboard and that will make the bow go to starboard? I'm about to go out, I'll try that.
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Old 27-09-2015, 14:40   #99
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

No, not quite.


You are going backwards, but when you put the engine in forward gear the rudder thinks you are going forward, even though you are still moving backwards. This is because the localised water flow from the prop is what the rudder will see, not movement of the water from the boat's movement.


You will feel it happen when you put the engine in forward gear. There will a moment, after about one second, where the force of the water that has been trying to push the rudder to port (and the tiller to starboard) will drop off completely. This is the moment the force of the water being driven backwards by the prop overcomes the force of the water moving forwards over the rudder from the boat's movement backwards. At that moment, simply keep the tiller moving from the starboard side of the boat to the port side (so now you have starboard helm) and give the engine a bit of power. The boat will turn to starboard even though it will still be moving backwards.


None of this should be full throttle (at least not on any boat I have manoeuvred) and never full rudder movement because this will just block the water flow.


Like others have suggested, get out in open water and practice this, it will become very much second nature. Of course, you have to get out of the pen to do so, which is a bit of a chicken and egg thing.


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Old 27-09-2015, 14:46   #100
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

I'm going now, I'll report back tonight
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Old 27-09-2015, 14:47   #101
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

I had to move my buddy's Cheoy Lee 30 (full keel) at night with no one around and a breeze blowing me into the slip. I had to back out, and the channel was narrow. I knew the chance of me getting out pointed correctly was doubtful and the chance of then getting blown back broadside at a line of transoms was good. So I went to the dock astern of me and heaved a tennis ball filled with silicon, tied with a light twine at the boat. On the fifth try it was close enough to grab. I used it to pull over a beefier line and proceeded to pull the boat straight back. Once it was at the other side I had enough room to turn and get out of the channel. I didn't have to go back in but I could have used the same line set up to let the boat drift or back into the slip and then retrieve the line when done. I am not sure if that helps you in your situation. I did my my first sea trials of 11 foot oars to assess their usefulness on 29 foot 8000 lb. boat. I can confirm preliminary results are that it is possible to move said boat one half a nautical mile in 20 minutes. At that point the engine overheated and required coolant, an expensive, chilled concoction of fermented grains and hops. More testing is planned. About the outboard, my boat came with one and I admit I find it quite an ugly thing to have hanging on a transom. HOWEVER, my boat was not built for an inboard. In using the outboard I have come to appreciate some of its assets, maneuverability being a big one. So though I eschew the mounting of outboards, I have come to find that the mount the former (engineer) owner designed is a fair compromise, it works well. It can be hoisted clear out of the water and lowered to the point where I have not yet seen it come up out of the water in chop. I am not advocating it, just saying it can be acceptable if no other option exists. In your case, yes stick with the diesel, and hire the stroke from the local crew.
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Old 28-09-2015, 01:36   #102
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

That's a pretty cool idea! The tennis ball thing.

I had good luck today but it was light wind in the harbor but not on the water..

Today I locked my tiller slightly to SB. Started Walking the boat back to gain momentum and pushed the bow off a little, then it was at an angle and I hopped on and put it in reverse, but I didn't rev it high just a little so I avoided prop walk. I thought I had read in previous advice to gun it in reverse for shot bursts, but that makes it worse. At least with mine.

Your 29 foot boat was designed for an outboard? That's weird. ,usually boats,that big are made for inboards.

Cool,thou if It is and you have on, use it, get a new Yamaha 9.9 and you'll love it.
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Old 28-09-2015, 02:54   #103
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

Congratulations on a successful "boat cycle". Glad it worked, even if it's not quite what I described. That's OK, it's free world after all (at least in some countries) and it's your boat.

I just get a bit nervous when I hear "and then I hopped on" after a boat is moving. Murphy says sooner or later you are not going to complete the "hopped on" bit, then it becomes a bit variable on the outcome. Usually the biggest variable being the size of the insurance claim.

The idea of the springer was that you never leave the boat once the boat is untied. That way surprise wind gusts are less likely to make a crater in your bank account.

But it does sound like you are getting a feel for the effect of the various engine revs on the movement of the boat. I am willing to bet soon you'll be loving that prop walk (from time to time) and all the things you can do with it. I used to read people saying prop walk was their friend and thought they were a bit odd, but now I understand what they mean.

Happy sailing!

Matt
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Old 28-09-2015, 03:23   #104
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

Well, I wasn't trying to not use your method, it's just that in light wind I find I can do it. Really I came on here to ask how to reverse out when the wind is blowing so that's when I will try your method, which I think is what I need to succeed.

I only gave the boat a little shove backk while untying the spring lines and then got on. Not anything crazy. Sailing alone you really have to, it's either that, or untie the spring line, the last line and get blown into the dock.
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Old 28-09-2015, 03:33   #105
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Re: Trouble getting in and out of slip

Yeah, sorry mate, didn't want it to come across like I was sulking about it or anything, just checking that you understood the subtle differences. Glad it went well.


If you are being blown into the dock by the wind, then you can probably hang off the last spring line. Then put the boat in reverse and the line(s) go slack, allowing you to unhook them and pull the boat backwards from the bow.


Lots of options. Have fun.


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