To Ketch or Not

[robert sailor]

Deerfoots can not be confused with many other ketches out there. Take note of the size of the rigs on those boats and the amount of sail they can set compared to dinky sticks and little sails so often seen on ketches and yawls..two different worlds!

[JJ77]

Originally Posted by SJ2581

Thanks Nicholson!

Does anyone know of a Ketch we can crew or captain without buying it outright?

Not exactly a ketch but many similarities wih a ketch to be found in this one;
Used Ocean 60 for Sale | Yachts For Sale | Yachthub

It is also for charter..oh it comes with a bimini too!

yacht_specifications_sailing_cruise

nope not mine,if it was I would not sell it.
cheers,

JJ

[robert sailor]

One other point Dashew's ketches are long and skinny, he does not believe in the amount of beam that is so popular with current production boats.

[Nicholson58]

I did a Google search for CHARTER A KETCH and found many opportunities. Most of these vessels are on the large size. Not surprising since the rig lends itself best to large boats. I think that if you poke around you can find a smaller bare boat or go on one of the big, crewed ketches.

In Muskegon, I know of two ketches presently available within a beer can toss. I attached photos. One is an Irwin 54 with sound hull but otherwise a handyman special for low money. The other is Maggie O'Katie, full keel double ender that has been well cared for. Masts are wood but the hull is GRP.

Irie Irwin 68 ft. ketch Charter Yacht - Cruising the Caribbean waters with 1st Class Yachts

Sailing yacht CHRONOS - Custom Ketch

Sailing Yacht MARI CHA III - Perfomance Ketch

KETCH for rent - yacht charter

S/Y AXIA - a world cruising pilothouse ketch available for charter.

Classic Monohull Irwin Ketch Sailboat| Caribbean BVI Crewed Charter Sailing Vacations|Tortola British Virgin Islands|Rhapsody Charters

Sailboat Charter: Annapolis, Baltimore, Chesapeake Bay Maryland boat charters on the Pintita.

Desiderata is a classic charter ketch based in the Caribbean - Picture of S/Y Desiderata, Grenada - TripAdvisor

[bobconnie]

A lot of you folks seem to only class a boat on how well it go's to windward !! Thats ok if ya never learned how to tack !! Now Im lazy and never sail directly to windward!!I would much rather take an extra day or two and bear off a few degrees, and be comfortable!! and work a lot less !! Just an old lazy sailors 2 cents

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Say, I bet that the 747 will beat your ketch reaching, running or sailing off a waterfall too.

I've noticed that lots of cruisers say things like your quote, but in reality, many desirable cruising destinations seem to be upwind of where folks start out. So, if you want to go there, you either gotta sail upwind or motor upwind.

Some of those destinations are a long way away, too, and perhaps beyond your tankage range. When you face this sort of situation, a boat that does well to windward will seem more important than some internet wisdom about voyaging in a 747.

Every cruiser has to make decisions when choosing his boat. If a ketch lights your candle, that's fine with me. And some of them (ie Nick's Deerfoot) go like hell, but few can afford and/or find such an unusual vessel.

Hope that you all find the boat of your dreams, and that the dreams are a good fit to reality.

Cheers,

Jim

All good points. I will just add that some ketches motorsail to weather much better than most boats sail to weather, and have been designed to do so for long periods of time with large tankage. I bet my boat would out point even yours if I can turn on my engine and you can't. And with 450 gallons of tankage she will happily point very high and keep moving very fast for a very long time, expending little fuel at low RPM. Maybe not the cheapest, most simple and dependable way to move a boat to weather, but it sure works good!

[Butterman]

Ok, so I realize this thread has been dead for a long time. I'm a first time poster to the cruisers forum, have only sailed once in my life (fell in love with it and am now obsessed), and I do not yet own a boat. With all of that in mind, I've got a few questions and comments for you veterans.

To start out, the difference between a sloop and a cutter somewhat evades me. As far as I can tell, the primary difference seems to be the placement of the mast and the number of sails forward of the mast. Namely, the cutter's mast is placed farther aft and has at least one sail between the fore-stay and the mast. Please Correct me on this if I am wrong.
As for a ketch, it has two masts, both of which tend to be shorter than what is found on a cutter or sloop, with the mizzen mast being the shorter of the two. The opposite would be a schooner. Correct?

Now, The advantages and disadvantages as I see them, are as follows:

Advantages of ketches:
1) More masts means more placements for sensors, antennas, and other equipment
2) Mizzen mast makes it easier to balance the helm
3) Mizzen makes it more maneuverable under sail (if well crewed).
4) Two masts can make for a smoother sail.
5) Mizzen means less reefing of main.
6) Faster downwind(?)
7) In theory, if a mast is lost, you may still have one remaining, making it safer on passages(?)
8) Shorter masts means less leverage on mast tops from relatively higher wind speeds aloft, making it more manageable.
9) Smaller sails are easier to replace
10) Smaller sails are easier to handle
11) Greater versatility in sail plans
12) Tend heavier, and therefore more comfortable.
13) Shorter relative mast height allows you to go under some bridges that you would not be able to otherwise.


Disadvantages of Ketches:
1) Greater upfront cost
2) Greater weight over all
3) Greater weight aloft
4) Greater overall rigging replacement costs
5) Difficult to place bimini
6) Less usable space to put equipment like solar panels
7) Less efficient close hauled/can't point as high.
8) Shorter masts are less able to reach the higher wind speeds found farther aloft(?)
9) Over all, tend to have less sail area for the length of boat(?)
10) Shorter mast means less range for sensors, radar, wifi, etc(?)
11) Generally, heavier in the beam/slower.
12) Mizzen clutter in the cockpit
13) More sails to hoist
14) Less potential for chartering(?)

Again, I have no hands-on experience with ketches, and the only sail I've done was on a 30' sloop for a single afternoon, so I rely on you guys for this information. That said, I think this is a fairly accurate summary of the advantages and disadvantages of the average ketch.
For me, I did not list beauty as an advantage, because it is subjective, and I happen to think cutters and sloops are beautiful too.
I think someday I will buy a 40'-50' cutter, personally. My ultimate goal is true bluewater cruising. Admittedly, ketches are well suited for this, but I have a few considerations which make cutters better for me. The first is that I want to motor as little as possible, which makes the ability to point high absolutely essential. From what I have seen, beating into the wind is, for most cruisers, their least favorite thing, so buying a boat which does it well may just make it a bit more bearable. Secondly, I have it in mind to have an electric or hybrid motor, which means my boat will have to be somewhat lighter, and have more room for lots of solar panels, and wind generators. I'm a major environmentalist, so the shorter range of an electric motor doesn't bother me as much as the damage done by diesel motors. (Also, range is a debatable issue, since a electric system never needs to go to port for fuel.) If I were to choose between motoring and beating into the wind, I'd choose the later, unless I was within range of the electric motor. In the doldrums, I'd rather just sit there and wait for the wind, like sailors have done for centuries. At a fundamental level, the whole point of cruising is to not have a schedule anyways =D

I would love to get feedback from you guys and gals. Also, I'd love to hear what the OP ended up with!

Cheers!

[Pelagic]

The primary reason that they added more masts were to make sail handling easier by reducing individual size for small crew

So LOA would influence your choice but with today's furling equipment, even that is no longer a determining factor.

I love my schooner rig for its beauty and versatility with 3 of the 4 sails being furlers, but it is not an efficient sailor.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Butterman

Ok, so I realize this thread has been dead for a long time. I'm a first time poster to the cruisers forum, have only sailed once in my life (fell in love with it and am now obsessed), and I do not yet own a boat. With all of that in mind, I've got a few questions and comments for you veterans.

To start out, the difference between a sloop and a cutter somewhat evades me. As far as I can tell, the primary difference seems to be the placement of the mast and the number of sails forward of the mast. Namely, the cutter's mast is placed farther aft and has at least one sail between the fore-stay and the mast. Please Correct me on this if I am wrong.
As for a ketch, it has two masts, both of which tend to be shorter than what is found on a cutter or sloop, with the mizzen mast being the shorter of the two. The opposite would be a schooner. Correct? Not exactly, some schooners' masts are the same height, the foreward one is the mainmast, the aft, the mizzen.

Now, The advantages and disadvantages as I see them, are as follows:

Advantages of ketches:
1) More masts means more placements for sensors, antennas, and other equipment
2) Mizzen mast makes it easier to balance the helm not necessarily, a well designed sloop or cutter can often sail herself to windward on a stable course, around 35 deg. off the wind.
3) Mizzen makes it more maneuverable under sail (if well crewed). I don't think so, otherwise, racing boats would be ketches, and although one might race one, ketches are not commonly considered to be racing boats.
4) Two masts can make for a smoother sail. Not sure what you mean by smoother sail, but if you mean a less bumpy ride to windward, you might try to hitch a ride on two boats of the same waterline length, and in the same conditions, and course heading, one a ketch and one a sloop or cutter, and see what your body has to say about the motion, as individuals respond differently to various motions.
5) Mizzen means less reefing of main. If what you're getting at is using jib and "jigger", yes, maybe, but you use different strategies with different boats....
6) Faster downwind(?)No.
7) In theory, if a mast is lost, you may still have one remaining, making it safer on passages(?) Interesting concept. If you're up for a read, read Alan Nebauer's "Against All Odds", with reference to his jury rig for going around Cape Horn.
8) Shorter masts means less leverage on mast tops from relatively higher wind speeds aloft, making it more manageable. That's a stretch, part of seamanship is selecting the correct sail plan for your vessel and the conditions.
9) Smaller sails are easier to replace Yes, they weigh less, and generally cost less. Paying for lighter weight large sails is expensive, and of course the spinnakers of various sorts are dear, as well. Considering a mizzen staysail, are you?
10) Smaller sails are easier to handle Yes. It is why people invest in furlers of various kinds.
11) Greater versatility in sail plans Depends on how many sails you want to carry, eh?
12) Tend heavier, and therefore more comfortable. Oddly enough, this gets back to what kind of motion your body likes, and also, how you feel about long term exposure. In the year of the June storm, the boats that got clobbered were the slower ones, the "Heart of Gold" was already in shelter when it struck. So, lighter, faster, can mean safer, but not always, depends on structural integrity and seamanship skills, imho.
13) Shorter relative mast height allows you to go under some bridges that you would not be able to otherwise.


Disadvantages of Ketches:
1) Greater upfront cost II don't think many are being produced today, so if you ordered a custom build, yes.
2) Greater weight over all Depends on construction
3) Greater weight aloft yes,
4) Greater overall rigging replacement costs yes
5) Difficult to place bimini yes
6) Less usable space to put equipment like solar panels yes, and wind generators
7) Less efficient close hauled/can't point as high. Problem solved by motor sailing
8) Shorter masts are less able to reach the higher wind speeds found farther aloft(?) A disadvantage in light airsDepen
9) Over all, tend to have less sail area for the length of boat(?)
10) Shorter mast means less range for sensors, radar, wifi, etc(?)Depends on where you place them, which represents compromises.
11) Generally, heavier in the beam/slower. I'm sure it must be possible to design a fearsomely fast split rig (you saw the pic of Beowulf, on the preceding pages?), but commonly, yes.
12) Mizzen clutter in the cockpit Some, more so than others.
13) More sails to hoist
14) Less potential for chartering(?) Outside my pay grade.

Again, I have no hands-on experience with ketches, and the only sail I've done was on a 30' sloop for a single afternoon, so I rely on you guys for this information. That said, I think this is a fairly accurate summary of the advantages and disadvantages of the average ketch.
For me, I did not list beauty as an advantage, because it is subjective, and I happen to think cutters and sloops are beautiful too.
I think someday I will buy a 40'-50' cutter, personally. My ultimate goal is true bluewater cruising. Admittedly, ketches are well suited for this, but I have a few considerations which make cutters better for me. The first is that I want to motor as little as possible, which makes the ability to point high absolutely essential. From what I have seen, beating into the wind is, for most cruisers, their least favorite thing, so buying a boat which does it well may just make it a bit more bearable. This is an interesting point. IME, the ability to work to windward is a much neglected virtue in a boat, and has saved us countless bother. Secondly, I have it in mind to have an electric or hybrid motor, which means my boat will have to be somewhat lighter, and have more room for lots of solar panels, and wind generators. I'm a major environmentalist, so the shorter range of an electric motor doesn't bother me as much as the damage done by diesel motors. (Also, range is a debatable issue, since a electric system never needs to go to port for fuel.) If I were to choose between motoring and beating into the wind, I'd choose the later, unless I was within range of the electric motor. In the doldrums, I'd rather just sit there and wait for the wind, like sailors have done for centuries. At a fundamental level, the whole point of cruising is to not have a schedule anyways =D

I would love to get feedback from you guys and gals. Also, I'd love to hear what the OP ended up with!

Cheers!

From what sources would you acquire the electricity for the electric or hybrid motor? If from solar panels, how about their production/disposal environmental impacts? How does a non professional environmentalist find out reliable data on that?

Also, while you may be suited to waiting for wind, that is fine in the open ocean, maybe not so fine if you want to make an arrival in time to catch a favorable tide, or you don't want to go elsewhere.

Really, something that might help you is to get involved in a nearby sailing community, sail a lot on other people's boats, buy a small first boat and learn to sail it, and check out some of the CF threads about books.

Ann

[Butterman]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

From what sources would you acquire the electricity for the electric or hybrid motor? If from solar panels, how about their production/disposal environmental impacts? How does a non professional environmentalist find out reliable data on that?

Also, while you may be suited to waiting for wind, that is fine in the open ocean, maybe not so fine if you want to make an arrival in time to catch a favorable tide, or you don't want to go elsewhere.

Really, something that might help you is to get involved in a nearby sailing community, sail a lot on other people's boats, buy a small first boat and learn to sail it, and check out some of the CF threads about books.

Ann

I totally agree, and have plans to to a lot of sailing this spring and summer with friends. There is no substitute for experience.

To answer your question, mostly, I've been doing a lot of research at home over the last year. Basically, the idea would be to:
A) Have a good sail plan for light winds as well a wide range of wind angles, so that motoring is less "necessary" in the first place.
B) Be comfortable sitting still, if that's what the weather brings. In a fundamental way, I'm a purist. I want to sail, not motor.
C) Have a large battery bank and/or hybrid motor system that would allow me to run on the motor at low-mid RPM for several hours or more, or full RPM for an hour, without energy coming in. With a good amount of energy coming in, perhaps double those numbers. (Yes, I know this is $$$, but I think the investment is worth it) Again, the idea is not to use this except getting out of harbors, going up rivers, and in emergencies.
D) Have a wide variety of power regenerating sources, and pull in as many amps as possible.

1. Namely, as many solar cells as I can fit on the boat. The bimini roof would be largely made out of panels and would extend over an aft arch. at least some of them would also be able to be pitched towards the sun, so as to maximize their efficiency.
2. At least one wind generator.
3. A tow generator while under sail, and/or...
4. ...Back-winding of the prop to either reverse spin the electric motor or an alternator, to produce even more energy.
5. Either a hybrid motor, or a Honda generator (wouldn't keep up with electric motor output alone, but would give me at least an option for power production on nights when the wind isn't blowing).
6. Could always connect to shore power as well, though I doubt I will need it.

In this way, I'd have at least one source of energy at all times, and on sunny days when the wind is blowing, I'll have heaps of energy to fill the battery banks. far more than I could use. I would never need to stop in to ports except to take on food, replace broken parts, check in to countries, and have a drink at the pub. from time to time, I would need a bit of fuel for the tender and Honda generator/hybrid motor.
The other bonus to all of this incoming energy, is that I will have a massive surplus coming in once the battery banks are filled, which lets me run the water maker, laundry(?), electric stove(?), freezer, and maybe even a small AC (fingers crossed). Maybe not all at the same time, but still....
When I do have to motor for long distances, I can cut power to these amenities and give it all to the motor, chart plotter, and other necessities. Use a wind vane rather than an auto-pilot (which sucks up energy), keep food cold with ice made during surplus days, cook food with a solar oven or eat raw, et cetera.

Again, the idea is to use the motor minimally anyways, so most of the time, except perhaps at night, I will have surplus energy to run whatever I want.
I think I will not only be just fine, but will live quite comfortably, as long as energy consumption is managed well. Not to mention, no stinky, loud diesel engine, no fire or explosive hazard....

If something goes wrong with the electric motor, they are light and small enough to easily store spare parts or even have a replacement shipped. They are actually quite easy to service and maintain, as there are few moving parts. I am also a much better electrician than mechanic, so I feel much better installing and working with an electric system than a big old diesel. There is no need for consumables like oil. There is no need for through-hulls to cool the motor, just a fan and heat-sink. While it is true that it is easier to service diesels in foreign countries, ultimately, its a sailboat anyways.

PS: As for the environmental impacts of producing batteries and solar cells, I freely admit, they are not perfect, and absolutely do have negative effects on the environment. That said, they are still significantly better for the environment than energy on land (produced by coal or natural gas) and they are also better than running a boat on diesel. Besides, they are a one-time production, rather than a diesel, which requires consumables (oil and fuel) for it's entire lifespan. Also, most of those boats rely on shore power when they get to dock, which is, again supplied by fossil fuels.
In addition to this, I am a firm believer that the small negative impact of producing solar and batteries can be outweighed by a greater good. For me, this means starting a YouTube channel with the purpose of not only showing people how beautiful the earth is and how great the cruising life can be, but also educating people about the effects of climate change, and pollution. In this way, perhaps I can make a difference that far exceeds the individual action of quietly reducing only my own impact.