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Old 12-01-2014, 07:57   #31
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Re: To Ketch or Not

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
For cruising, a staysail ketch or schooner is good. The sails come in smaller/handier sizes and provide flexibility in sail plans. A single-masted boat is better for day sailing as there are fewer sails to hoist.
I don't hoist on any normal day. All roller furling means they are always up.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:57   #32
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No but with a ketch , you in effect have the main on another mast. The accepted wisdom is that a jib alone put a lot of pressure on the mast potentially pushing the centre aft wards . The main in a sloop counteracts that ( as does a baby stay or inner )

Dave
Jib and jigger upwind won't keep the course you want so you hoist the main and drop the mizzen and go sloop.. never really notice any bowing.. mind I don't push my boats.. prefer comfortable progress over slamming speed.. unless its a day play and I've 4 walls and a roof to go back to..
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:45   #33
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Re: To Ketch or Not

Agree with Dave that sailing upwind under jib and mizzen is somewhat counter to common thinking. Not just because of the potential mast problems of not having a counter force to that of the jib, but also because of moving the forces toward the ends of the boat rather than moving them toward the CE. Actually the mast issues is not such a problem on most ketches as the main mast tends to be short and thick.
My normal action when faced with sailing upwind in more than 30kts apparent is to go the other direction. When that is not possible I usually sail with reefed main and staysail. Either way (jib and mizzen or main and staysail) it's a matter of which option provides the balance of the forces on a given boat. No really hard and fast rules.

John
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:55   #34
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Re: To Ketch or Not

Having owned a 37' cutter and now a 44' ketch either one would be a good choice, more important is the boat the rigs attached to. I would say over 50' a ketch makes a lot of sense and under 40' a cutter or sloop is the way to go. The 40'to 50' range is the gray area, going with what looks right is a good a reason as any. As far as a full bimini, I have one under the mizzen boom so it can be done, just need to be a little creative.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:56   #35
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Re: To Ketch or Not

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Still, for a yacht that is in current mass production, the Amel 55 and 64 are as good as can be had for liveaboard cruisers.
With the total production capacity in teens per year Amels are rather not mass production boats
Nevertheless production they are. Options are at the level similar to Ford T



But nevertheless fine boats. Discovery aims generally at the same market niche. but with different approach...
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:11   #36
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With the total production capacity in teens per year Amels are rather not mass production boats
Nevertheless production they are. Options are at the level similar to Ford T



But nevertheless fine boats. Discovery aims generally at the same market niche. but with different approach...
There's no options cause everything and then some are already thrown in. Hardly a model T. And they do some customisations but on a very small scale.

Dave
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:16   #37
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Re: To Ketch or Not

One thing people repeatedly say about a ketch is it's great ability to deal with high winds under jib and mizzen , or Staysail and mizzen, alone and in comfort with minimal crew work. Personally I wouldnt hesistate to buy a ketch if the boat was what I wanted. What I dislike about many of them is the mizzen clutter in the cockpit. Now a staysail yawl would be the perfect boat!...
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:53   #38
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Re: To Ketch or Not

I find that the cost to replace my standing rigging would be far less than most sloops. Seriously, I do have a full size bimini installed. Perhaps I'm different...:-)
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:09   #39
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Re: To Ketch or Not

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I find that the cost to replace my standing rigging would be far less than most sloops. Seriously, I do have a full size bimini installed. Perhaps I'm different...:-)
Of course You are different
You have two boats tied together
But seriously - center cockpit ketch is a way to have a bimini and no mizzen clutter in the cockpit.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:15   #40
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Re: To Ketch or Not

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There's no options cause everything and then some are already thrown in. Hardly a model T. And they do some customisations but on a very small scale.

Dave
May be You did not notice that I was talking about the level of options/customisations only. Not long time ago it was not even the possibility of choosing the fabrics or veneer inide. Now this is possible.
Generally my remark meant, that it is small scale production boat, but the customisation is as restricted as for mass production.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:18   #41
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Re: To Ketch or Not

This thread is useless without pics
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:22   #42
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Re: To Ketch or Not

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes there are downsides:

1. A sloop is faster upwind, period.
2. A ketch rig is more expensive.
3. A sail inventory for a ketch is more expensive.

Every ketch sailor has come from sloops and cutters, while sloop owners must still become cutter owners (which re-programs them into accepting sloops are not better for every situation) and after that need to become ketch owners to get the full picture

For cruisers, point 1 listed above is not of much importance as you try not to sail upwind. The higher costs are partly investments because even for the sail inventory, it will last much longer.
Some of the sail expense for a ketch can be offset by the sails being smaller. And the need for less headsail inventory vs. a sloop.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:28   #43
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I'd have to say under 55 feet I can't see any point to ketches , no matter how " nice" they look. Performance is not any different underway pn most points of sail , and worse to windward

Don't believe me ask Evans Starzinger . Why his 2nd boat was a sloop.

Nothing is cheaper on a ketch , and the main reason they survived into the 80s was the race rules in relation to mizzen sail area.

It simply makes no rational sense , hence the test is purely down to personal perspectives not actually practical issues.

At this stage in a typical marina or anchorage , you have trouble finding even one small ketch

Dave
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Old 12-01-2014, 13:46   #44
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Re: To Ketch or Not

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One thing people repeatedly say about a ketch is it's great ability to deal with high winds under jib and mizzen , or Staysail and mizzen, alone and in comfort with minimal crew work. Personally I wouldnt hesistate to buy a ketch if the boat was what I wanted. What I dislike about many of them is the mizzen clutter in the cockpit. Now a staysail yawl would be the perfect boat!...
Check our layout above. With center cockpit, mizzen is behind. I agree re. having the mizzen in front of the wheel. I would never own this set-up. Our boat is a big cutter sloop with a substantial mizzen behind. We often forget it is there or even that it is rigged. I even forgot to furl it once coming back to our slip. My dock mates were impressed that I 'planned' how to use it to maneuver in tight quarters.

My backstays are 3/4 inch. The main mast is 12" x 7" oval with 1/4" wall and center web divider. I don't worry about sailing without the main. The cutter stay attaches at the upper spreaders and there are running backs to 3-part blocks and dedicated lewmar 45 winches. Again, I don't worry about the mast.

Cutter-Jib & jigger will let you weather a storm if you are willing to fall way off the wind. Its pretty great down wind or wing & wing. There is too much belly in the mizzen to work well close hauled but slightly off, say 5 degrees, you notice the advantage. As things pipe up, the mizzen is first to go as it contributes to too much helm. Our main (80 feet) is the same high aspect ratio as the same vessel in a sloop version. We go to weather with the best of them. This irritates a couple of the big racers in Muskegon. Our standard draft is 6'-8" but with the board down, 13 feet.

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Old 12-01-2014, 13:58   #45
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Re: To Ketch or Not

I've had all three and now own a cutter. I live my cutter but I must admit that I miss the ketch. A very versatile sail plan, specially for someone older and specifically if some is on RF. I've sailed a center cockpit staysail ketch in 50kt winds and it was beneficial to have the sail plan options.
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