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Old 07-02-2014, 22:47   #1
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Tired of forum post showing up in my search

I've avoided at all cost to join forums and post things for over 20 years. But after researching a random part today for my job I finally got fed up with with random post showing up when I'm trying to solve a problem.

One post that somehow really got up my crawl was about a guy buying a boat and a bunch of people posting self survey advice.

I know I won't be popular here but at least I'll only say what I know is the best answer to anything I see. And I'm sure many people think the same when they are posting their input.

I'm a 49 year old Captain that was born as a liveaboard to a family of sailors. I have never lived on land my whole life. I spent money on getting a formal education in the maritime industry from undergraduate to graduate school and I've never worked a job on land. Even when I was in college at MMA I forced the staff to allow me to live on my boat while in the regiment. And when I was a the USMMA I stayed on my boat.

While I appreciate the DIY stuff/mantra and have seen tons of good advice I'm just tired of seeing new people get advice to do things that are not safe for their investment or beginning in this wonderful world.

It's not good to give people with information that will later deter them from giving the lifestyle a shot. We have a responsibility as experienced boaters to give really useful good information and should be calling out bad advice asap instead of worrying about what people or moderators are going to think or do if we are honest.

There is no reputation on these forums. Your reputation is in the marina where you reside or visit. Forums are for information not community.

Just My Opinion
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Old 07-02-2014, 23:29   #2
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Looks like MMA was more tolerant than CMA. I went back to school in my mid 40's and CMA insisted I live on campus in the dorms. Got to return to my home on "off watch" weekends. It was an adjustment to have some upperclassmen young enough to be my kid, give me demerits for a belt buckle that wasn't shiny enough.

Welcome to CF and your first posting in forums. I would guess close to 10% here are also in the industry.
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Old 08-02-2014, 00:02   #3
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Yes, there ARE reputations and community in forums. Its your non use of them that leads you to think other wise.

You are known in the community as a lurker, a person who googles a forum for advice but doesn't normally put back into the pool of information,. In this case you have and welcome along. Perhaps in another 20 years you will get to enjoy the communities that do exist in all forums.

Its a bit like hiding in your house and saying "my street doesn't have a community feel". Unless you're involved in your streets activities, its not going to have that feel for you.
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Old 08-02-2014, 00:51   #4
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
Yes, there ARE reputations and community in forums. Its your non use of them that leads you to think other wise.

You are known in the community as a lurker, a person who googles a forum for advice but doesn't normally put back into the pool of information,. In this case you have and welcome along. Perhaps in another 20 years you will get to enjoy the communities that do exist in all forums.

Its a bit like hiding in your house and saying "my street doesn't have a community feel". Unless you're involved in your streets activities, its not going to have that feel for you.
While I can't disagree with lurking I can say I don't google advice. I might google a term and hit a forum which is what lead me here to begin with.

I can safely say I've been involved in my streets activities. I can bet many people know me on here as my parents were well known free sailing spirits on the east and west coast of the US and we did 5 loops before I went to college only one with my mother. My father is actually pretty well known in the sailing community through his younger antics and was published several times and now as an elder liveaboard. I was interviewed by Donahue with my brother and sisters about our experience living aboard and being home schooled several times in the late 80's and early 90's. "my street doesn't have a community feel" yeah it doesn't any more. I haven't left and come back. I've been here for years and I feel like every port I hit we are losing more and more of our community.

I've lived all over the world and have many moms and dads which are all passing on these days and I'm not seeing the community as strong as what I grew up in. I still work in it for a living and I still see old friends. I'm not a old timer rejecting technology I just see unfavourable changes these days in areas that once enhanced our community. For example the true salts I knew growing up if they read half these post you'd see here cursing and violent responses would be a short order.

I know not all cruisers are liveaboards and I know not all liveaboards are cruisers. Maybe for the first time I'm getting to read the advice I never got growing up or professionally but No I do not like it and I'll say it's not good placate idiotic statements I've seen in many of these forum post. And it has angered me.
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:25   #5
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Looks like MMA was more tolerant than CMA. I went back to school in my mid 40's and CMA insisted I live on campus in the dorms. Got to return to my home on "off watch" weekends. It was an adjustment to have some upperclassmen young enough to be my kid, give me demerits for a belt buckle that wasn't shiny enough.

Welcome to CF and your first posting in forums. I would guess close to 10% here are also in the industry.
I did not have the experience being a older student in a regiment at a maritime academy, I can imagine that was a humiliating experience. If you had many years of experience working in the industry as well that commands a level of respect I doubt most people could tolerate long enough to finish.

Not saying the regiment or academics was ever hard or tough. But the personalities that go to these schools are always socially questionable. If you stayed in the business I'll bet you have seen half if not more of your class fall out of the industry. Out of the group that graduated with me I know nowadays only two people other than myself are working in the maritime industry today.

With that said I can understand why you decided not to polish your belt buckle. Sometimes oppositional defiance just makes you feel good.
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:55   #6
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

On CF we tend towards giving folks the benefit of the doubt on being idiots and not taking anything written here as gospel - simply offering info to chew over to help guide them into finding own answers that fit own circumstances......and to the frustration of many that is often about helping folk find better / more questions to ask - of self!

Of course that benefit of the doubt is sometimes misplaced - but it's an imperfect world .

Online, real world - free and paid for........all have plusses and minuses, the "answer" is usually a mix, exactly what mix is down to each to choose. or their mum to choose for them .
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Old 08-02-2014, 02:12   #7
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Quote:
Originally Posted by sealubber View Post
There is no reputation on these forums. Your reputation is in the marina where you reside or visit. Forums are for information not community.
Absolutely disagree. These forums are living, breathing communities -- virtual communities, perhaps -- but communities nevertheless, where people's personalities come out, including their knowledge or lack of knowledge. Reputation is a supreme factor in forum interactions -- reputations built up over years of participation, opinions and knowledge tested by peer review and criticism.

You have to have a few brain cells to be able to separate the inevitable bad advice and even nonsense, from what is valuable and true. But that's no different from any other situation in life. You will never be able to access even a fraction of the sheer volume of knowledge and experience you can find on here, by talking to neighbors in your marina.

When you see someone giving bad advice, speak up, like the rest of us do. Some other knowledgeable person may not agree with you -- a discussion then ensues. And then you end up learning something, often even when all you intended to do was to give advice. That's the beauty of this Forum. But lurking won't do it -- you have to participate, discuss, argue (politely), think, listen, put your reputation on the line when you express an opinion. You will get almost nothing out of the Forum by just lurking.
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:12   #8
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pirate Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

I'll second Dockhead in saying that a 'Community' exists on CF... maybe not all well seasoned 'Old Salts'.. and maybe not all professionals but is that important... many so-called guiding lights in this lifestyle/sport started without formal training yet became 'Legends' in their own lifetimes through their achievements.. others.. less interested in fame and fortune just plod on in the background and chuck in their 0.5cents every so often on here.. a few off us also use this forum to stay in touch.. its so much simpler than e-mails and a lot more fun... someone you met months/years back in Australia... or maybe Panama.. the Med.. re-appears in a thread and one can catch up in public or by PM...
I've personally been helped by total (real life) strangers.. some of whom I've since met.. some I may never meet.. but through this medium I can at least maintain a contact that may wither and die over time otherwise..
I'm a somewhat 'Gobby Buga' on here as the Posts tally in my Avatar will confirm.. only maybe 10% of those are of any real use.. if that.. most is just horsing about pulling folks chains but that's what makes this such a great place for me.. its not a bunch of me-me occasional posters who only appear when they want something.. and there's a fair few of those..
There's some real characters on here who are not afraid to speak their mind.. ignore the PC bullshit so prevalent these days and have extensive experience and valuable advice to those of us still dabbling our toes so to speak..
So it is with regret I have to say.. Your talking outa yer Ass...
For me... and I'm a member of at least 7 other (rarely visited) forums.. CF and the folk I know and have met here virtually is awesome.. stick around.. swing the lantern with us occasionally... you might even grow to like some of us...
A 'Newbie'...
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:59   #9
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Quote:
Originally Posted by sealubber View Post
I've avoided at all cost to join forums and post things for over 20 years. But after researching a random part today for my job I finally got fed up with with random post showing up when I'm trying to solve a problem.

One post that somehow really got up my crawl was about a guy buying a boat and a bunch of people posting self survey advice.

I know I won't be popular here but at least I'll only say what I know is the best answer to anything I see. And I'm sure many people think the same when they are posting their input.

I'm a 49 year old Captain that was born as a liveaboard to a family of sailors. I have never lived on land my whole life. I spent money on getting a formal education in the maritime industry from undergraduate to graduate school and I've never worked a job on land. Even when I was in college at MMA I forced the staff to allow me to live on my boat while in the regiment. And when I was a the USMMA I stayed on my boat.

While I appreciate the DIY stuff/mantra and have seen tons of good advice I'm just tired of seeing new people get advice to do things that are not safe for their investment or beginning in this wonderful world.

It's not good to give people with information that will later deter them from giving the lifestyle a shot. We have a responsibility as experienced boaters to give really useful good information and should be calling out bad advice asap instead of worrying about what people or moderators are going to think or do if we are honest.

There is no reputation on these forums. Your reputation is in the marina where you reside or visit. Forums are for information not community.

Just My Opinion
I think you might have it a bit backwards. The new guy walking the docks, or talking to the parts store guy, or maybe unlucky enough to find a pro to talk to that really shouldn't be in business, is not going to know if these people really know what they're talking about or not. In person most people are more polite and don't want to call B.S. right to someone's face.

On forums there is a wider audience and being less personal I think people are more willing to challenge someone's information if it doesn't seem right.

So in your example if someone is giving self survey advice to a newby on the docks there's only going to be a few people around, and the other person thinking that the newby is getting bad advice might not say anything, whereas on a forum there'll be many people giving their opinion, hopefully the majority is giving good advice allowing the newby to see those many opinions, and there's more likely to be someone challenging the self survey advice.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:12   #10
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Ditto to what David Old Jersey, Dockhead, Boatman 61 and Cal40john responded. Notice the name of the forum. It's definitely NOT intended to be the Merchant Marine Forum.

And the reputation of cruisers is NOT in a marina. Living in a marina is NOT cruising.

I spent 40 years in the offshore and underwater communities, and I'm still learning from people on this forum. And How to Swab the Decks of the good old MMA training ship Baystate is not really of much interest.

The way your daddy taught you in your liveaboard life may, or may not be the best way to do things on my boat, or in my country of residence, or in my situation. It might, but that's not a given.

Perhaps you should start a Merchant Marine forum. You're not going to win much support wading into a bunch of independent cruisers like the ultimate authority. Bashing DIY ideas and basically taking the attitude that we all just need to hire a professional for every job on our sailboats is ridiculous. When I'm anchored in Mayaguana and trying to fix a problem, I am much more interested in how other cruisers solved it, than how it's taught on a 300 ft. ship with mechanics and spares.
Tell me, how many times at MMA was the instruction to just use duct tape or whatever you have at hand, vs. submitting a requisition for spares from ships stores?

MMA has nothing to do with my cruising plans. Different worlds.

You say you stayed away from forums for 20 years, yet I see you have 30 posts on this one alone. And in one week. Hmm.

And your first post is bitching about forums and trying to dictate what they're "for"??

Good luck here, hoss.

In the Merchant Marine, you are assigned respect with your job title. In the cruising world, you have to earn it.

Where did Captain Hazelwood of the Exxon Valdez go to school, again? Oh, yeah, I see he has his bachelor degree in marine transportation from the State University of New York Maritime College..

Thor Heyerdahl studied zoology at the University of Oslo. Joshua Slocum learned to read and write at the Mount Hanley school in Nova Scotia, and then went to sea. Go figure.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:37   #11
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

What they said!
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:48   #12
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Some aspects of OP's impression are correct. CF started out the way it should be, i.e. Experienced cruisers helping other experienced cruisers and the newbie cruisers. They discussed and good options were put forward.

Times change. The classifieds section moved towards the "need boat for free" ads and people that do not own a boat, nor have ever sailed in their lives, started posting advice on how to do anything. Often, completely wrong advice, given wrongly on purpose, just for the heck of it to hope people would do it so they can have a laugh. This disgusting behavior can be seen all over the net... there are many who are very sick in their heads.

So, how to change things back? Forget it, I tried and was stopped. You are not to spoil the fun of these trolls. The forum doesn't care if info is good or bad, can't determine that anyway, and members should just have fun. I was told to stop telling people they posted wrong info, regardless of who is right, members are not to be confronted on this. Let it go, was what I was told. This is just the Internet.

Problem is that I was one who build a little piece of the Internet and believe me, none of us wanted to build a medium for fools. But it is how it is. I'm still here because of the community that exist and still try to help because many still appreciate that when they learn how to sift through it all to get the right answers/info. Some of us really have boats, live on them in exotic but 3rd world places and have been doing that for a long time
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:10   #13
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

I was trying to come up with a witty response, and then thought, why bother ?
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:27   #14
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

You could always turn to the pay for and answer sites. This is free exchange of information and is a community. When your a member for a while you get a good feel for the members. I learned most of what I know about sewing on upholster.com. (one example) There are several people there who give sage advise and selflessly help people along. When I ask "How do I do this" I often get several different methods from professionals around the world and discussions about the merits of each method. Same here, The right answer to one person is not a universal fit. How to do something for coastal liveaboard cruising may be absolutely wrong for crossing an ocean. I did my own survey. I knew what I wanted in a boat after owning sailing and modifying one for 15 years. Would I recommend this for someone just entering the marine world? absolutely not. I treasure the wealth of information that abounds here. If you were less of a lurker and gave out some of that sound advise it would improve the site. In the torrent world the ones who download without uploading arent called lurkers they're called leechers.
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:43   #15
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Re: Tired of forum post showing up in my search

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Ditto to what David Old Jersey, Dockhead, Boatman 61 and Cal40john responded. Notice the name of the forum. It's definitely NOT intended to be the Merchant Marine Forum.

And the reputation of cruisers is NOT in a marina. Living in a marina is NOT cruising.

I spent 40 years in the offshore and underwater communities, and I'm still learning from people on this forum. And How to Swab the Decks of the good old MMA training ship Baystate is not really of much interest.

The way your daddy taught you in your liveaboard life may, or may not be the best way to do things on my boat, or in my country of residence, or in my situation. It might, but that's not a given.

Perhaps you should start a Merchant Marine forum. You're not going to win much support wading into a bunch of independent cruisers like the ultimate authority. Bashing DIY ideas and basically taking the attitude that we all just need to hire a professional for every job on our sailboats is ridiculous. When I'm anchored in Mayaguana and trying to fix a problem, I am much more interested in how other cruisers solved it, than how it's taught on a 300 ft. ship with mechanics and spares.
Tell me, how many times at MMA was the instruction to just use duct tape or whatever you have at hand, vs. submitting a requisition for spares from ships stores?

MMA has nothing to do with my cruising plans. Different worlds.

You say you stayed away from forums for 20 years, yet I see you have 30 posts on this one alone. And in one week. Hmm.

And your first post is bitching about forums and trying to dictate what they're "for"??

Good luck here, hoss.

In the Merchant Marine, you are assigned respect with your job title. In the cruising world, you have to earn it.

Where did Captain Hazelwood of the Exxon Valdez go to school, again? Oh, yeah, I see he has his bachelor degree in marine transportation from the State University of New York Maritime College..

Thor Heyerdahl studied zoology at the University of Oslo. Joshua Slocum learned to read and write at the Mount Hanley school in Nova Scotia, and then went to sea. Go figure.
You nailed it.
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