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Old 10-08-2010, 21:05   #16
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Most ply monos have a very poor resale value.
Ridiculous. Poorly built plywood anything's have poor resale value. In fact, home built catamarans have less retail value compared to home built monos of similar scale.

I have crossed oceans, though never in one of my designs yet and I have lived aboard, several times in my life, a few aboard my designed and built creations. Most designers that actually make a living at design work have an extreme passion for the industry. This would include sailing, powerboating, living aboard, passage making, etc.


George Buehler's sailing designs are hugely burdened, by any stretch of the imagination, even he admits this, so please speak what you know, not what you were cohered into building. These same sailing designs can't get out of their own way, let alone leave the dock in anything less then 8 knots. He's all but given his sail design up, except for a few commissions he's had in the last couple of decades, in favor of continuing development of his "Ducks". Again by his own admission he's no longer interested in sail. In fact his beloved, butchered and lying idle for the last 15 years Dragonfly is still for sale, unfinished in his side yard. Ask any designer what they think of George's sailing designs and you'll get much worse then what I'm suggesting.

I've sailed several of George's designs and his concept was sound once, but it doesn't work well in today's market. Displacement is directly related to build costs (taken directly from George's book). Heavy, fat boats cost more to build, even when using 2x6's for frames. There was a time when MDO was good plywood, not any more, there was an era where finding hot dipped, cold rolled was easy, not any more. Take Hagar, his 22' 9" LWL double ended cutter at 4 tons. Yep that's right 4 tons on a 22' 9" LWL, no that's not burdened! A modern boat of similar scale would be literally half of this. George is talking about stuff that was true in the late 1960 and early 70's (during the home building hay days) when men were men, women low maintenance and good vertical grain lumber available from the local hardware store for 75 cents per eight foot 2x4, but not any more, nearly a half a century later. I know, I was building back then too. It was great, polyester sheathed, home made catamarans, that only a mother could love, occupied a remote corner of every marina, with big sheets of sheathing hanging limply of their flanks and tattered blue tarps, held down with old car tires, covering the cockpit. Yea, the good old days, with polypropylene halyards and all. Pleeeease . . .


I do agree Tom Colvin's designs are worthy looking at. One look and you can see where George gets some of his influence or possibly inspiration. Sam Rabl also was an influence on him, by his own admission. Tom has done some fairly interesting stuff, though much depends on your design brief. As a rule his sailing shapes are much more refined and displacements much more reasonable. You can tack through 80 degrees in a Colvin, but I wouldn't bet on it in a Buehler sail design. Don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy (George), at least the last time I had him on the phone he was, but even he has abandoned his sail designs.

Sorry about the rant, but I'm not an "expensive" designer, I wouldn't try to squeeze a small army of berths into a 40' yacht, nor insist on 2 heads within 20' of each other. Nor will most designers, though clients often force us to make concessions, it's not the mark of a poor design or designer, just the signs of a poorly constructed design brief.
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Old 11-08-2010, 14:53   #17
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Hello All,
As I've mentioned before, I have ordered the study pack for the construction of a Didi 40cr. I did also look at other designs, Tom Colvin, Roberts etc. The ones that caught my eye however were the Dudley Dix designs and the V.D.Stadt.
The Dudley Dix web-site goes a lot more into detail as far as examples of construction, methods of construction and links to owner backyard builders. From surfing the net and speaking with people (here in South Africa) who have dealt with Dudley Dix I have come to the conclusion that he is very approachable and backs his customers to the hilt.
V.D.Stadt have some beautiful designs (awesome reputation) but their website is pretty limited and uninspiring. I also sent them an email with a query and never received an answer. I phoned them and the person on the phone was pretty arrogant. I have been told though that the V.D.Stadt designs and plans are the most detailed and most easy to build. I would however feel more comfortable dealing with somebody who responds to my emails and is prepared to take my calls. i.e. Dudley Dix
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Old 19-08-2010, 07:00   #18
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thread drift

from PAR: "There was a time when MDO was good plywood, not any more..."

I've built a lot of little stuff and AB marine ply was beautiful material. Yesterday I bought a sheet of 3/8" AB for $67 +. Filler footballs on both sides and a long linear crack filled with putty. The world is going to hell.

Same source: " ... 1960 and early 70's (during the home building hay days) when men were men, women low maintenance and good vertical grain lumber available from the local hardware store for 75 cents per eight foot 2x4, but not any more, nearly a half a century later."

I miss the low maintenance women most.
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Old 19-08-2010, 09:13   #19
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Youi might be interested in the following link to the builder who built my boat. It reinforces what you have been told so far, except that mine is no more difficult to maintain than a fiberglass boat.

http://www.devlinboat.com/stitchandglue.php
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Old 19-08-2010, 09:59   #20
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Hi All,
Thanks for all your input. Thanks curmudgeon for the link. Interesting and confirms my convictions. The more research I do, the more convinced I am that wood is the way to go. As far as designs are concerned I prefer the more modern ones. i.e. Dudley Dix and V.D.Stadt.
Dudley Dix would be my first choice.
Cheers,
Alan
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Old 19-08-2010, 18:22   #21
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You get what you build, I just built a 7ft dingy out of ply for less than $150 when it starts to fall apart at this price I will just build another one.
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Old 19-08-2010, 18:51   #22
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Thank you Par, for an imformative and comprehensive contribution.
For 18 yrs I managed a building materials center that also distributed Marine plywood.
I can tell you, just because the sheet has BS1088 stamped on it, doesn't mean it's worth a sh1t if it was from the far east.
Most people coming in to buy it, couldn't tell if it was sapele, luan, meranti, okoume (sp), or whatever.
Cores were often full of voids, and very poor quality and badly glued.
The "boil proof" glue would seperate at ambient, high humidity temperatures.
The good materials were ThamesPly and Brunzeel from South Africa. To those of us that are old enough to remember, Cornelious Brunzeel built StormVogel out of plywood, and dominated ocean racing for years.
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Old 19-08-2010, 23:39   #23
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Joubert still makes a good product, The Aqua and Hyrdo Tech brands are good, but both need and informed inspector or you can get stick with junk and a fake label or stamp.

It's difficult to trust anything out of the Pacific rim nations in recent years. There's just no quality control or regulations in place to protect anyone, so inspect you stuff or get burned.
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Old 12-09-2010, 09:01   #24
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Wills and needs

Hi to everyone!
Until now i have no experience about boat building, but i have decently live experience and capabilities for building a boat for the first time(i think).
It is very interesting to me to discuss about any aspect of our needs and what is the best way to satisfied them.
In my case my wife and i Want some comfortable and strong and safe sailing boat.All of our needs the Bruce Roberts enable through his C SPRAY 38 boat plan.Now we are ordered the custom made plans for us.
Briefly,we need the large aft cabin with the ,,normal passage,, sloop,high of headroom of 2,1m, the seating platform on the deck, boom of 1,9m high from the deck, and i make some interior changes, like i made only one bathroom (but bigger),and only two more bads int the front cabin.All of this allows good size of kitchen and saloon.
Our intend is to live on the boat about one to two months every year,and sail every year further.
I sow many boat plans and i think this the first what meets our desires,when i said first i think the smallest which have all what we need.
I agree that there is the many different between almost same length of boat, and our case is one of that (our C SPRAY 38 have 16 tons of displacement and many of materials to finish building) but in this case i think that this is our decision and i think it is worth.
What is your opinion (please try to be objective as you can)about our decision to BUILD C SPRAY 38 FROM BRUCE ROBERTS.All of your experience is
welcomed.
ps
sorry on my English, but i am trying...
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:17   #25
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The Spray series is a great marketing tool for Roberts, but both the design itself and the person leave much to be desired. I hope you actually get your plans. Don't expect help from Bruce once you do and lastly, doesn't expect much preformance from your Spray. In other words, 100 degree tacks would something to be grateful about. Spray makes a great liveaboard.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:37   #26
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Support ➥ PIRATED BRUCE ROBERTS BOAT PLANS BEWARE OF PHIL HOGG
Spray ➥ Bruce Roberts, steel boat plans, boat building, boatbuilding, steel boat kits, boat kits
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Old 12-09-2010, 13:14   #27
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believe it or not

Dear PAR,
sorry but my English is bad and really i don't understand what are you saying to me.Please,it is very serious to me because i am agree everything with ,,Bruce Roberts,, about my custom plans and patterns, and i will pay to him tomorrow 1.000 eur for that.Do you mean that hi is so frivolous that is the question is he general send to me ordered plans.
Do you have informations about something like that from somebody.?
Are you saying to me that this ship is not good enough.?
Is your opinion that i would not need to agree about buying full plans and patterns.?
He offers full 24 hours backup for his soled plans,email or phone.
Now i am very disturb, because if i understand you, Bruce is very bad person and i cant be even sure that hi will send me my ordered plans and you think that this sail boat is not good at all.
Dear god,i intend to pay 1000eur for the plans and spend more 40.000 eur to finish (i believe), and spent many many hours of hard working...
Please answer me and everybody else who knows something which will help me.
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Old 12-09-2010, 13:24   #28
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I think RMs are plywood. Seen a couple and they seem fine. Then again they are not a garage company nor a home builder.

But most anything else I have seen in plywood sucked in one way or another - or too heavy, or ugly, or both.

Cold molded boats can be a thing of beauty though. Still, I would not bother, because of the maintenance issues.

Then again it all boils down to what use you imagine for your boat - any material will beat any other in a specific application I guess.

My early Cadet was plywood and it took me to many adventures, and back.

b.
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Old 12-09-2010, 16:26   #29
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Originally Posted by ericdrag View Post
Dear PAR,
sorry but my English is bad and really i don't understand what are you saying to me.Please,it is very serious to me because i am agree everything with ,,Bruce Roberts,, about my custom plans and patterns, and i will pay to him tomorrow 1.000 eur for that.Do you mean that hi is so frivolous that is the question is he general send to me ordered plans.
Do you have informations about something like that from somebody.?
Are you saying to me that this ship is not good enough.?
Is your opinion that i would not need to agree about buying full plans and patterns.?
He offers full 24 hours backup for his soled plans,email or phone.
Now i am very disturb, because if i understand you, Bruce is very bad person and i cant be even sure that hi will send me my ordered plans and you think that this sail boat is not good at all.
Dear god,i intend to pay 1000eur for the plans and spend more 40.000 eur to finish (i believe), and spent many many hours of hard working...
Please answer me and everybody else who knows something which will help me.
Hello Eric,

I can't add anything to the discussion of Bruce Roberts or his company, but the Spray series of designs have proven to be rather poor sailors, and I think that is what PAR was talking about.

Their hull shape and rig are such that sailing performance in light or moderate winds is very poor, and they will not sail to windward very well. Many people find that their good points, like load carrying ability and roomy interiors outweigh these factors -- it all depends on your priorities.

Good luck with your project!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Cairns, Qld, Australia
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Old 12-09-2010, 17:47   #30
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I cannot advise you regarding the boat type you wish to build. But have you considered the amount of labor needed to construct a boat??? The hull is a small part of the total construction and you plan to spend E40K to finish this thing IF YOU FINISH THIS THING??? Do you really believe your boat will have a market value that at least equals your construction cost???? REALLY????

I met a mechanical engineer some years ago in Florida who took on a boat construction project. It was a 55’ something or other made from aluminum. He did ALL the work including cutting and forming the aluminum, welding, grinding, painting…..everything!

The last time I checked his project it was ready for the engine to be installed. Shortly there after he was forced to launch the boat because the construction site he rented was sold. HE WORKED A FULL TIME JOB, PLUS EVERY AVAILABLE HOUR ON HIS PROJECT …………FOR OVER 20 YEARS!!!! It was still not finished when it was launched. He had all the inside work to do plus all the rigging.

I suggest you give this project another consideration!!! I doubt you will ever get your money back IF you finish and you will get NOTHING back if you do not finish. Just my thoughts------

Foggy
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