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Old 08-03-2013, 01:55   #1
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The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Ok, so we all know that the Passports and Valiants and Hans Christians, etc.. are capable offshore vessels. But while half the cruising population praise them, the other half condemns them (and similar designs): "they are slow, don't sail in light air, and don't point high."

All true. So what is a good compromise then? I've been trying to understand the design criteria, I figure a good middle ground would be:
- fin keel (about 6.5+ draft) for pointing ability and reduced weather helm
- DLR around 260/250 for comfort when it's rough
- SA/D around 21 & high aspect mast for light air performance (statistically 1/3 of passage making takes place in light air, and diesel will probably keep getting more expensive)
- fiberglass deck for low maintenance, teak inside for a cozy feel (just my pref)
- dedicated nav station (so can work while cruising and earn some $)
- good storage
- sea-worthy birth
- sea-worthy galley

Do you know of any boats that come close to the said spec, that are affordable (read: well-depreciated, i.e., older), around a LOA of 36-38???

Thanks
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:43   #2
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Be very careful about using Displacement /Length and Sail Area numbers in abstraction, You really have to sail a range of boats to understand how these play out in reality.

I would ask ,

* What do you want to do
* Where do you want to go
* How many of you are there
* Whats your past experience and affinity to any type.

Its not about a general "compromise" , its about your factors that affect what you will compromise for.

Dave
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:10   #3
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

You might want to add skeg mounted rudder to your list.

Some of the 90's Jeanneau yachts will meet your requirements.
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:45   #4
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

I really think that "physical attributes" do not make that much difference. , like the comment about skeg rudders, Designs change as demand,material science and costs change.

You can circumnavigate today in almost anything and hence the differences come down to mainly personal preferences or perhaps boat ideology.

There is no "perfect offshore cruiser", there is only the one that you like and that you are happy with the compromises.

Dont get hung-up on specifications, its the ultimate sign of a newbie in my experience. Go sailing and build experience, that experience will then inform you of the choices that matter for you ( and who ever else sails with you).


Then with that experience, you can come back on here and bore the rest of us with you view on your "best " boat. ( ie the one you own now)

Dave
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:06   #5
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pirate Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I really think that "physical attributes" do not make that much difference. , like the comment about skeg rudders, Designs change as demand,material science and costs change.

You can circumnavigate today in almost anything and hence the differences come down to mainly personal preferences or perhaps boat ideology.

There is no "perfect offshore cruiser", there is only the one that you like and that you are happy with the compromises.

Dont get hung-up on specifications, its the ultimate sign of a newbie in my experience. Go sailing and build experience, that experience will then inform you of the choices that matter for you ( and who ever else sails with you).


Then with that experience, you can come back on here and bore the rest of us with you view on your "best " boat. ( ie the one you own now)

Dave
+A1...
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:35   #6
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How about -

The boat you rig, equip, prepare, and are ready to go out there with as much fun and safety as you can?

It's kind of like, what boat to buy? In the end the best one is the one you have to keep looking at each time you leave the dock. Kind of like that special girl, (or whoever you know what I mean) you have to look up as she leaves the room or look back as you do.
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:40   #7
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by welljim View Post
- DLR around 260/250 for comfort when it's rough
- SA/D around 21 & high aspect mast for light air performance
You have been spending too much time reading books.... old books.

You have a DLR for an older design semi-tank boat. But then you have a SA/D for a racer. Maybe there is such a boat somewhere, but I don't think I would want it if so.

Good Luck.
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:46   #8
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There is no "perfect offshore cruiser", there is only the one that you like and that you are happy with the compromises.
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

There is no such thing as a perfect boat. All boats make compromises. As Don L points out in his posting, trying to find the "perfect" SA/D ratio for speed and the "perfect" D/L ratio for comfort and stability renders you a boat that doesn't exist.

Only you can decide what compromises are right for you. Good luck.
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:52   #9
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

every marque has problems
every individual has problems
sail everything you have an interest in looking at.
whenyou find the boat you like sailing an d living inside of, then you willknow the perfect cruiser for you.
i find my formosa just about perfect despite her needs and wants.
enjoy the process..can be a lot of fun
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:53   #10
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Quote:
* What do you want to do
* Where do you want to go
* How many of you are there
* Whats your past experience and affinity to any type.
Start with those questions. Just for example, someone crossing the Pacific might have very different criteria from someone who wants to enjoy the East Coast of North America to the Caribbean. Over here 6.5 foot draft would be very limiting in many areas.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:59   #11
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

There are few things on this forum truer than this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There is no "perfect offshore cruiser", there is only the one that you like and that you are happy with the compromises.
I can only add two things, one serious and one for fun...


--- There is no such thing as the "perfect offshore cruiser", but the one that is PAID FOR is pretty good!!!


--- Even though I agree that playing the numbers game will run not really do too much for you....If you wish to see my choice, for my application, which meets most of your basic criteria (lighter than your D/L spec at 167, and a bit lower S/D at 17.5 - 18)....have a look at the Catalina 470.....aft cockpit/aft cabin, fin/wing keeled, sloop...

These photos show the vessel and many of the things you listed:
...its well curved underbody forward of the keel, reasonable bilges for a fin keeler w/ 6' draft, the well designed spade rudder, rig, sails, nav station, sea berths, galley, cockpit, non-skid fiberglass decks, teak interior, lots of storage / tankage, etc...
4700101
4700101
Nav Station
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/4714801.htm
Nav Station
E120/Cockpit
Lee Boards/Cloths
Starboard Lee Cloth
Frig/Freezer
4712307
Solar Panels

And, if you want to see a lot more, have a look here...
C470 Projects by Boat Name


I'm not implying that my Catalina 470 is the "best", but rather just that it met my needs / desires, so it was my choice....
(BTW, she's NOT for sale!!)

I hope this helps..

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:21   #12
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

Guys, come on, same advice is passed on forums over and over, I've read it thousands of times. Personally I don't see how such advice helps a buyer, it is practically impossible to sail every boat that one takes an interest in, in the conditions of their intended use, and without spending for the privilege of such sea trials a fortune, or without waiting a lifetime for relevant opportunities to show up in the cheap. Let's get real and embrace the specs. I appreciate that it takes a bit of study and sailing a few boats to understand how they translate into actual performance, but it's the only way to evaluate other designs without sailing them. Besides, let's not forget that ratios where developed as an answer to the real practical limitations of access to real boats. If you really have the means to sea trial every boat you are interested in, good for you. I don't, so I embrace science approximations and talk ratios instead.

In terms of what I spec-ed: those who have actually cruised for some time, all agree in 2 things:
1) it gets rough in the ocean
2) statistically, 1/3 of passage making is light air sailing (< 10 knots)

Therefore physical attributes do mater a lot:
1) a high aspect keel / rig will be the difference between sailing, and spending your cruising kitty on diesel
2) a heavier boat means more motion comfort, which translates to a well rested (i.e., safer) crew, and a boat owner who doesn't cruise for a year and then sell the boat because they can't do the upwind leg to go back home.

In the interest of clarity, I never talked about a design that has the defined ratios spot on. The figures I referenced are to be used as a guide. But I think my requirement is clear, I'm looking for a boat designed for extended cruising, that sacrifices some sea-keeping abilities in favor of sailing performance. If you know of suitable designs around LOA 36'-38', please do recommend.

Btw, someone up there said I chose a DLR of a tank... not at all: a Beneteau First 405 for instance, arguably one of the faster boats out there, if not the fastest in class, has a DLR of 233. On the other side of the spectrum, a Passport 40 has a DLR of 270. The 250 ratio that I chose as a guide falls right in the middle.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:33   #13
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

I'm not going to go to the trouble of looking up numbers, but maybe, Hylas, Hallberg Rassy, Waquiez, the old Beneteau First series, Dufour, ... come to mind.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:35   #14
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Check out the older Sharki or Santorin Amel's.

Very seaworthy - in the 40ft range and built like a brick sh*thouse.

The looks are very European/French but a capable world cruiser that is solid and has a strong owners group.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:47   #15
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

You should look at early HR's and Swan's me thinks.. No such new builds.
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