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Old 10-03-2013, 11:24   #91
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
And one can also sometimes sound a bit arrogant by the things you post.

Coops.
Arrogant or self-righteous or bragging. Never mind. What's more "entertaining" is reading some so called 'experienced" poster who elbows around here with a plethora of comments about other posters get slapped down with a single post from a well known experienced and proven sailor (one that doesn't waste all their time here on CF). Credibility is a hard fall from the top.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:26   #92
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by welljim View Post
Poor upwind performance is generally associated with keels that can't produce enough lift, and with keels that offer low separation between the centre of buoyancy and the centre of gravity, as that separation is the lever arm that describes the righting moment of a heeled boat. Namely, full keels and modified keels, which most of the traditional designs are equipped with. Although you can't trim a boat to point higher than it's design allows, you can indeed trim for reduced weather helm. But the only way to do that (or at least the only way that I know of), involves reducing sail one way or another, therefore further affecting performance. If you know more about this and disagree please explain, I'm interested.
I thought it would be interesting to point out some counter-examples.

The Mini Transat class of boats do not point particularly well. I don't know why this is, but I've raced against one well-sailed Mini (we were obviously in different divisions, but we were sailing the same course at the same time). The Mini couldn't point any better than I could, and my boat is hardly known for pointing ability (VALIS has a shoal keel, and roller-furling headsails). We do OK, but not nearly as well as most modern racers, or even a Cal 40. I've heard similar comments elsewhere about the Mini's pointing. On the other hand, surfing downwind the Mini will do a horizon job on me in short order.

As for trimming sails to reduce weather helm, there are many ways to do this without reducing sail area. Adjusting twist and fullness (and of course angle) can make a huge difference. The object is to get well-attached airflow from top to bottom that translates into an appropriate lift vector without unnecessary heeling force. And, once you've near hull-speed, you really should start reducing sail area, or otherwise shedding some wind. Very few boats plane upwind, but of course the lighter boats with modern hull shapes can be pushed faster than a similar length "crab crusher". Still, at some point you will make better VMG with shortened sails.

In general, your premise is correct that modern, lighter, boats have better performance. For cruising (instead of racing), this may not be as important as the many other factors that go into the overall experience. The good news is that there are plenty of entirely appropriate boats out there. You just have to pick your own priorities, knowing that other people may have other priorities -- somewhat different, but still perfectly valid.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:27   #93
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I wonder what is an experienced sailor? This is supposed to be a place to share opinions. If you can't handle different points of view then this place is not for you.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:36   #94
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
Lotta crap about high pointing and keel ratio's... cruisers don't much like pointing if they can help it... voyages are planned to avoid it as much as possible.. to much like hard work.. speeds up wear and tear... lousy for your diet..end quote


"Wow. I finally heard someone say it!" (sm)



yup. exactly.

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Sure, that's nice and all, but sometimes you just have to get upwind and it's too far to motor.

Would you be happy with a boat that couldn't go upwind at all? I wouldn't. How about a tacking angle of 160 degrees? Even with leeway, that's technically "upwind", but not very satisfactory in my opinion. My boat can't do better than 90 degrees, and usually it's closer to 110 (True Wind Angle). That's been good enough for me, but others may want better.

We can't entirely dismiss windward ability when we discuss the desirable characteristics of cruising boats. Or light-air performance, for that matter.

Please note that I'm saying this as the owner of a heavy cruising boat.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:38   #95
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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I wonder what is an experienced sailor? This is supposed to be a place to share opinions. If you can't handle different points of view then this place is not for you.
exactly. experience seems to just be relative.
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:16   #96
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

I haven't waded through the whole thread, so I don't know if someone else has observed something along these lines. Apologies if so.

It seems to me the OP may be saying "weather helm" when he actually means "leeway"?
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:26   #97
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I haven't waded through the whole thread, so I don't know if someone else has observed something along these lines. Apologies if so.

It seems to me the OP may be saying "weather helm" when he actually means "leeway"?


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Old 10-03-2013, 17:38   #98
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Have to agree ,its difficult to get a sub 40 ft serious cruising cat to look as good as a mono in that size range, they just to look to high and boxy ala Leopards and lagoons,although some Australian designers seem to have got it right.
I realize that this is the monohull thread, but Craig Schionning's Spirited 380 is a gorgeous boat and I'd cruise in one of those anytime. The issue with Cats is ability to carry weight without sacrificing performance, not good looks.
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Old 10-03-2013, 17:54   #99
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I realize that this is the monohull thread, but Craig Schionning's Spirited 380 is a gorgeous boat and I'd cruise in one of those anytime. The issue with Cats is ability to carry weight without sacrificing performance, not good looks.

I don't think there's any good excuse to sail an ugly boat.
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Old 10-03-2013, 18:02   #100
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pirate Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Sure, that's nice and all, but sometimes you just have to get upwind and it's too far to motor.

Would you be happy with a boat that couldn't go upwind at all? I wouldn't. How about a tacking angle of 160 degrees? Even with leeway, that's technically "upwind", but not very satisfactory in my opinion. My boat can't do better than 90 degrees, and usually it's closer to 110 (True Wind Angle). That's been good enough for me, but others may want better.

We can't entirely dismiss windward ability when we discuss the desirable characteristics of cruising boats. Or light-air performance, for that matter.

Please note that I'm saying this as the owner of a heavy cruising boat.
Awww come on mate... taking it to an extreme to prove a point are we not..
I'm not dismissing the need for windward ability... what I was trying to say in my ham fisted arrogant way was the question is..
'The perfect offshore cruiser..?' but the answers coming out are numbers and ratio's...
Its a cruiser not a racer...
I'm like the guy looking for the perfect Campervan... don't need to know the ideal tappet settings... does it go..? How do I stop it..
Everyones going on about performance, but what about storage, tankage, ease of maintainance/repair in out of the way places, can it be careened... draught issues... livability
But hell... what do I know... spend to much time on CF...
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Old 10-03-2013, 18:07   #101
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I realize that this is the monohull thread, but Craig Schionning's Spirited 380 is a gorgeous boat and I'd cruise in one of those anytime. The issue with Cats is ability to carry weight without sacrificing performance, not good looks.
Beware. I have sailed a Schionning and that was definitely one of the worst BUILT boats I have ever sailed in.

No fault with the designer there I guess. This particular builder is no longer in business (tells a story).

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Old 10-03-2013, 18:09   #102
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

If I were to daydream here I would go for something like the new Cigale or else one of Dick Zaal's designs (Atlantic, Greyhound or Northern Comfort). Fast, strong, safe. What else can one ask for.

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Old 10-03-2013, 18:11   #103
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Everyones going on about performance, but what about storage, tankage, ease of maintainance/repair in out of the way places, can it be careened... draught issues... livability
True. Most of your time--the vast majority--is spent at anchor. First and foremost a long-distance cruising boat is a cargo ship. It has to be able to carry you and your passengers and all their food, water, and equipment from port to port safely and comfortably, and then you have to be able to live aboard comfortably for the 90% of the time you aren't sailing.
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Old 10-03-2013, 18:23   #104
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
(...) My boat can't do better than 90 degrees, and usually it's closer to 110 (True Wind Angle). That's been good enough for me, but others may want better.

We can't entirely dismiss windward ability when we discuss the desirable characteristics of cruising boats. Or light-air performance, for that matter.

Please note that I'm saying this as the owner of a heavy cruising boat.
I have seen many 'heavy' cruising boats sailed very well in light winds. OK, maybe 90 degrees is not quite where modern racing boats go, but if she keeps on going, then you will get where you want to go.

I am apparently in a boat similar to yours, if much smaller. Contrary to what many people think, our best sailing days are always when the wind is light - the passages from Panama towards Galapagos and from Darwin towards Christmas two notable examples.

And so I too am in favour of light wind performance but I no longer get nuts about pointing - as long as the boat gets within 90 on a nice day and within 110 on a rougher one I say that's OK.

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Old 10-03-2013, 19:18   #105
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Re: The perfect offshore cruiser!?

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Originally Posted by welljim View Post
Ok, so we all know that the Passports and Valiants and Hans Christians, etc.. are capable offshore vessels. But while half the cruising population praise them, the other half condemns them (and similar designs): "they are slow, don't sail in light air, and don't point high."

All true. So what is a good compromise then? I've been trying to understand the design criteria, I figure a good middle ground would be:
- fin keel (about 6.5+ draft) for pointing ability and reduced weather helm
- DLR around 260/250 for comfort when it's rough
- SA/D around 21 & high aspect mast for light air performance (statistically 1/3 of passage making takes place in light air, and diesel will probably keep getting more expensive)
- fiberglass deck for low maintenance, teak inside for a cozy feel (just my pref)
- dedicated nav station (so can work while cruising and earn some $)
- good storage
- sea-worthy birth
- sea-worthy galley

Do you know of any boats that come close to the said spec, that are affordable (read: well-depreciated, i.e., older), around a LOA of 36-38???

Thanks
How many people as regular crew? Any kids?
Sailing experience?
What's your budget to buy and outfit the boat? (living and cruising costs extra.)
Where are you? Where do you want to sail out of? Which coast do you want to set off from and more specifically where on that coast?
Where to you want to go?
Are you looking to cruise extensively or liveaboard and occasionally take several weeks or months off to nip around the Caribbean or Baja?
Any really strong preferences to start with? (full/fin keel, mono/multi, spade/skeg/attached rudder, sloop/cutter/mizzen rigged)
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