The perfect offshore cruiser!?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by welljim

Btw, someone up there said I chose a DLR of a tank... not at all: a Beneteau First 405 for instance, arguably one of the faster boats out there, if not the fastest in class, has a DLR of 233. On the other side of the spectrum, a Passport 40 has a DLR of 270. The 250 ratio that I chose as a guide falls right in the middle.

Yes the 250 falls into the mid range of a a heavy cruiser for an OLD design! And lots of books written years ago by people writing about all those older boats.

There are lots of past threads like this, maybe a place to start is to read all those! Afterall I have the inpression that you feel you already know the aswers.

[robert sailor]

If I knew your budget I might be able to throw a few opinions out there. If your budget is on the tighter side Look at something Like a Niagara 35 or a CS 36 Traditional. Moving up a litte check out the Pretorian 35 or the Hood 38. Cheers

[Capt.Alex]

Hylas and Tayana, although they tend to be a little bigger than what you are looking for. Smallest Hylas is 44'.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by welljim

Guys, come on, same advice is passed on forums over and over, I've read it thousands of times. Personally I don't see how such advice helps a buyer, it is practically impossible to sail every boat that one takes an interest in, in the conditions of their intended use, and without spending for the privilege of such sea trials a fortune, or without waiting a lifetime for relevant opportunities to show up in the cheap. Let's get real and embrace the specs. I appreciate that it takes a bit of study and sailing a few boats to understand how they translate into actual performance, but it's the only way to evaluate other designs without sailing them. Besides, let's not forget that ratios where developed as an answer to the real practical limitations of access to real boats. If you really have the means to sea trial every boat you are interested in, good for you. I don't, so I embrace science approximations and talk ratios instead.

In terms of what I spec-ed: those who have actually cruised for some time, all agree in 2 things:
1) it gets rough in the ocean
2) statistically, 1/3 of passage making is light air sailing (< 10 knots)

Therefore physical attributes do mater a lot:
1) a high aspect keel / rig will be the difference between sailing, and spending your cruising kitty on diesel
2) a heavier boat means more motion comfort, which translates to a well rested (i.e., safer) crew, and a boat owner who doesn't cruise for a year and then sell the boat because they can't do the upwind leg to go back home.

In the interest of clarity, I never talked about a design that has the defined ratios spot on. The figures I referenced are to be used as a guide. But I think my requirement is clear, I'm looking for a boat designed for extended cruising, that sacrifices some sea-keeping abilities in favor of sailing performance. If you know of suitable designs around LOA 36'-38', please do recommend.

Btw, someone up there said I chose a DLR of a tank... not at all: a Beneteau First 405 for instance, arguably one of the faster boats out there, if not the fastest in class, has a DLR of 233. On the other side of the spectrum, a Passport 40 has a DLR of 270. The 250 ratio that I chose as a guide falls right in the middle.

Sorry this is no way to choose a boat, You simply cant buy "by the numbers" And of course you cant sail everything. So what do you do

1. set a budget
2. decide how old, old boats need money spent on them
3. Talk to your sailing partners about what you and they want ( or believe they want)
4. Short list, maybe you dont want to travel the world trying to buy a boat, a shortlist could contain actual boats, not "desires".
5. set a realistic timescale, dont keep chasing the "deal"
6. accept that no boat is perfect
7. where you intend to sail and how you sail has a big impact, If you want to do the North west passage thats a different boat to cruising the Carribean or the Med

Despite what you say , heavy weather performance, is not really a deciding factor, yet too many people obsess about something that they may never need in a lifetime of sailing. Too many people play the "specmanship" game, endlessly evaluating designs often against incorrect criteria.

The fact is both a Beneteau and a Oyster will take you round the world, just as a Toyota and a mercedes will bring you from NH to florida. IN one the stereo and the leather will be very nice, in the other....

Far more success in the occasional heavy weather will be down to what you as the shipper knows and does. The boat cant save you from yourself.

Ive sailed heavy and Ive sailed light , both have advantages and disadvantages. remember in cruising you will spend very little time crossing oceans , hence a bit of discomfort once every one or two years may be acceptable for comfort at anchor or during short(ish) passages.

Dave

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by welljim

(...) So what is a good compromise then?

a) fin keel (about 6.5+ draft) for pointing ability and reduced weather helm

Fin keel and draft are no guarantee of reduced weather helm.

b) DLR around 260/250 for comfort when it's rough,

DLR is not a guarantee of comfort when rough.

c) SA/D around 21 & high aspect mast for light air performance

SA/D and high aspect MAIN are no guarantee of light air performance.

Note your b and d may work against each other.

d) fiberglass deck for low maintenance, teak inside for a cozy feel (just my pref)

Granted.

e) dedicated nav station (so can work while cruising and earn some $)

Granted.

f) good storage

Complies with b, but not with c.

g) sea-worthy birth

Get a pregnant one, deliver offshore. See also f below.

f) sea-worthy galley

You want a French boat, preferably with a French cook.

Q: Do you know of any boats that come close to the said spec, that are affordable (read: well-depreciated, i.e., older), around a LOA of 36-38???

A: Tartan, Morgan, Morris, Vancouver, Rival, Oyster, Victoria, Bowman, Dufour, Amel, Ovni.

Last 3 come with that cook, if you shop aright.

Cheers,
b.

[jackdale]

You need to sail a bunch of boats with different deck and interior layouts to determine your preferences. Try chartering some and living aboard them for a week or two. I have a huge list of must haves, and like to haves, and dislikes that are highly personal. It is amazing how little annoyances can become big issues.

[goboatingnow]

Tartan, Morgan, Morris, Vancouver, Rival, Oyster, Victoria, Bowman

big money, not sure if you get value for it though. nice teak.

Amel,

big big money

Dufour

and you leave out Beneteau and Jeanneau and include Dufour, arguably far lighter built boats then either. hmmm

Ovni

100 degree AVS ( theres a number for you )

Dave

[Lowcountry]

Valiant.

[goboatingnow]

The fact is that cruising does mean you have to buy something made 20 years ago. Most modern yachts , with the typical mods, will do fine, This gives you a reasonable boat second hand, with enough money to get a decent size, Evidence has shown they stand up well to the rigours and as a lot was made there is good choice.

Exotic makes produced in small numbers are a bit like Morgan cars, beautiful to look at , expensive to own and quirky.

Unless you have a predilection stay mainstream. In my view its a mistake to go back years and years to own a old boat that might have been "quality" in its day, its like buying old Bentlys, nice, but have deep pockets.


dave

[deckofficer]

I came to this thread to see what others consider a almost perfect offshore cruiser. After reading the size constraints the OP assigned, I can't suggest what I would consider the almost perfect (almost, as there is no perfect) offshore cruiser. Had he not said 38' as the largest, then my vote would be Steve Dashew's Beowulf, a 78-foot ketch. That would be my dream boat for multi circumnavigations.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

I came to this thread to see what others consider a almost perfect offshore cruiser. After reading the size constraints the OP assigned, I can't suggest what I would consider the almost perfect (almost, as there is no perfect) offshore cruiser. Had he not said 38' as the largest, then my vote would be Steve Dashew's Beowulf, a 78-foot ketch. That would be my dream boat for multi circumnavigations.

nice tech, ugly though, given the money Id want something from the pen of Gerard Dykstra

http://www.gdnp.nl/bestanden/annagin..._515x335_1.gif

Dave

[deckofficer]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, this would cross oceans with ease.

[welljim]

Lots of good ideas here, the older Bene Firsts seem good value for money too? Does anyone have experience in the First 405 or 38? They are similarly priced, how are they doing with storage, rough weather performance / offshore work?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by welljim

Lots of good ideas here, the older Bene Firsts seem good value for money too? Does anyone have experience in the First 405 or 38? They are similarly priced, how are they doing with storage, rough weather performance / offshore work?

Bagheera (1985 Beneteau 38) has done 114,000 miles with Liza and Andy Copeland.



LIZA & ANDY COPELAND: World travellers, Cruising Authors and Speakers

[welljim]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Bagheera (1985 Beneteau 38) has done 114,000 miles with Liza and Andy Copeland.

I know, isn't it crazy that they managed with a family of 5? I'm looking at the layout of the boat and can't see how they figured out enough storage for such a large crew.