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Old 15-12-2009, 16:09   #31
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I would think that if you wanted some good information about what works and what dosent, ask the people that have been out there year after year, and you'll probably find that almost anything you buy, will work..
And a good example,
A couple years ago, we headed north up the west coast for a season, the west coast of the US that is.. To the San juan Islands and the inland passage.. Had a great time but I found something interesting on the way back down.. Theres a current that flows down the west coast and it carries a bit of junk along with it as it travels..
Well somewhere around mid Washington state we happened to see a pile of crap floating a few miles off shore..and as we passed I noticed things like an old pallet and a rail-rode-tie..
Stopped in Coos Bay for a few days and when we returned to the ocean, somewhere around southern Oregon, we saw the same junk with the pallet and rail-rode-tie..
and then we spotted them again after hanging out in Eureka for a week or so...
And I got to thinking about how the two were designed totally different but were traveling at about the same speed down the coast with the current.. and further the idea that they were faster than I as I kept passing them as we traveled..
So the reason I write this is that it dosent really matter what you sail, be it a pallet, a rail-rode-tie, or as myself, a damn fast cruiser.. we all end up in the same place sooner or later.. and your boat, be it power or sail, ketch or sloop...Its just the vehicle you use to get there..
but it does have to have a good oven, as I like to have warm bread & butter with my rum..
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Old 15-12-2009, 16:22   #32
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That pilothouse looks fit for a stink boat!
Sneuman sneuman.... you're such a nice fellow. You could have known that Jedi is heading north in a year or so... I'll look out for you so that you can repeat that in my face ;-)

Jealousy is a disease; try to be happy with what you have and respect others who have more or less.

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Old 15-12-2009, 18:55   #33
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I think that for a long distance offshore boat, a full keel is the only way to go. The tracking of a full keel should make it the only choice for a true blue water boat.

And a well designed full keeler has a more comfortable motion.
I do not think the keel configuration matters, as long as the keel design is such that it stays with the boat when it comes to a grinding halt. Hoek's Heartbeat cannot be denied the name of a true bluewater boat, now look at what keel she has.

I also beg to differ on the point of keel config vs. tracking. I think a well designed fine keel plus balanced rudder will track better than anything else. The long keelers tend to wallow. I think them good choice for a SMALL long range cruisers, (if such a thing exists, which I doubt). But beyond some size, we can have the benefit of a finer underwater shape.

Last, I disagree strongly with the idea that full keel equals more comfort. I would say that a well designed fine keel hull will be more stable and thus more comfortable, e.g. downwind, which is exactly what some long range cruisers do a lot.

Not to sound negative on anything long/full keel, just to say other configurations, well designed, can be equally good.

From onboard a full keel, mini-long-range cruiser,
(one far from perfection)
barnie
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Old 15-12-2009, 21:48   #34
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To me, the biggest issue is whether or not the extra speed conferred by a long waterline is worth the price you pay for it.
It's a matter of taste, values, and individual circumstances, but for me, it is definitely worth it. A bigger (that is, longer at the water line, heavier displacement) boat simply works better. It's not just speed. Besides faster, a bigger boat is more stable, has better motion, is more comfortable, is much less scary in heavy weather. It does cost you, in maintenance as well as acquisition cost. But does not necessarily mean more crew if everything furls, as it usually does over 50'. Harder to dock, but that's a fairly small price to pay, in my experience, and somewhat mitigated by straighter backing, and of course, by bowthrusters.
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Old 16-12-2009, 05:46   #35
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Sneuman sneuman.... you're such a nice fellow. You could have known that Jedi is heading north in a year or so... I'll look out for you so that you can repeat that in my face ;-)

Jealousy is a disease; try to be happy with what you have and respect others who have more or less.

cheers,
Nick
Ah, it's OK. You're out there having a good time. I'm not. Forgive me the little joke - I'm sure you can take it.
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Old 16-12-2009, 07:45   #36
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.

I don't like long keels because they just don't go upwind:
Wanna bet

Quote:
I also don't like long keels because they have lots of wetted surface. This means more to clean, more to paint, and a lot slower light air performance which means more time under power. Yuck.
I've had no complaints. It doesn't pay to generalize.
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Old 16-12-2009, 09:39   #37
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Re 'long keels not going upwind'. Did you mean "downwind" perhaps?

Mine goes upwind like a dream. The trouble begins downwind.

Perhaps this can be explained by the long keel of a tub (like a true Colin Archer, Westsail, etc.) vs. the long keel of things like Valiant, PS (and in Europe: Marieholm, Enderlein). Completely different cross-sections, probably completely different upwind capability.

Just guessing.

b.
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Old 16-12-2009, 10:55   #38
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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It's a matter of taste, values, and individual circumstances, but for me, it is definitely worth it. A bigger (that is, longer at the water line, heavier displacement) boat simply works better. It's not just speed. Besides faster, a bigger boat is more stable, has better motion, is more comfortable, is much less scary in heavy weather. It does cost you, in maintenance as well as acquisition cost. But does not necessarily mean more crew if everything furls, as it usually does over 50'. Harder to dock, but that's a fairly small price to pay, in my experience, and somewhat mitigated by straighter backing, and of course, by bowthrusters.
Well, it doesn't work better if something breaks, and there are more things to break. Plus, when things go wrong, all of the forces are much greater.

As for keels, my full keeled cutter isn't as weatherly as a fin keeled racer, but it's way superior if you happen to hit a submerged object or run aground.
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Old 16-12-2009, 10:55   #39
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What my choice was based on:

The program was first decided : around the world for several years.

Then the type of boat: as simple in term of design and rigging :
1 mast (so it will be a sloop), 1 fin keel (simple and reliable, no mechanism, no mobile parts, maintenance free, good performances).

The material choice (a never ending subject with pros and cons...): being a technician in the metallic construction and welding activity, a metallic boat is easier for me to survey and maintain as I am very familiar with the material and its ageing, repair procedures, etc...

The other factor in favor of metallic boat are that they can be easily modified, they are usually more leak-proof (watertight?) than others construction type, and they whistand properly the collision at sea (with containers), safety first.

Another positive factor is that they are usually less sensitive to distorsion than other type of construction.

For a question of maintenance, the final choice was aluminium instead of steel, mainly because my budget allowed it, but a steel boat was acceptable as well.

The size was to be sensible for a short handed crew and a sensible maintenance cost, from let's say no less than 38 to 44 feet maximum...the future showed that passion made me completely forgot this paramater when arrived the time to buy the boat !

The choice of the design had to be a classic / proven / well known one from some "famous / renown" architect (locally in my country or international) to avoid any disappointement once the boat was bought and also to have a minimum of performance at sea, mainly for safety reasons.

The design is considering the waterlines and sailplan, but also the deck layout and accomodation layout, all had to be classic and operationnal.

Same condition for the shipyard that built the boat, a well renown one was preferred.

After 8 years with the boat and a lot of fun and pleasure with no disapointment, we know that the logic was good for us.

My conclusion is that the type of boat that suits the best for somebody is something very personnal and has to be put in balance with your program, your ability and knowledge, and, of course your budget.

The choice of the quality is also very important (good design, good material, good construction) as well, whatever the type and material you want.
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Old 16-12-2009, 18:58   #40
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What do you look for in a long range cruising yacht ?
Hard to tell how to answer this… what, more or less, does long-range mean… tending to be a long way from home, which can mean anything, or tending to spend a lot of time underway… assuming the latter is the goal, I’d go for simple, unexotic and something that probably would require some serious convincing of the Admiral…
  • Sea berths for all intended stowaways – no more than three…
  • Galley with baking capabilities, non-mechanical icebox and otherwise compact…
  • Stowage for six months worth of consumable provisions other than liquids (cut down the stowaway list to meet this if necessary), and a year’s worth of mechanical spares (keeping things simple will help manage this – short on technogizmos, sorry no A/C or genset…)
  • Likely glass construction, but could be epoxy over cold-molded; smallish trunk-cabin with as much open deck as possible…
  • Provision to carry hard dink on deck/cabin
  • Smallish cockpit with substantial bridge deck to cut down volume and either way oversized scuppers or full draining to the rear…
  • Smallish auxiliary, centrally mounted similar to some of the Dix designs – cuts down the temptation to use it too often due to noise in the cabin, but makes maintenance easier…
  • Long enough keel (relatively shoal draft with bulbish ballast to get `er down low) so the boat can sit on its own bottom without nosing over, preferably with a skeg mounted rudder well aft
  • Something with a screen value under 1.80, probably tending to be narrower than is in vogue, but not a needle…
  • Single stick sail-plan rigged more as a cutter, but in all probability a double headsail sloop…
  • Probably a 38-40 footer with a D/L around 250 or so… essentially a 28-30-footer “compressed” into 40…
  • If cost is no object, or I win the lottery, get Bob Perry to design it all for me and convince me that my notions are all hooey; however, still want a boat that can get along for extended periods wihtout electricity or other power if required…
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Old 17-12-2009, 04:29   #41
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Answers to your questions

What do you look for in a long range cruising yacht ?

The ability to sail in any circumstance and type of weather, safely and as comfortably as possible, as well as to whitsand the condition without any failure.


What boats do you admire ?

Any kind of boat that is:
Well designed
Well built
Aesthetic
With lines and beauty that respect its type or gender (can be futuristic or a wooden classic, provide she shows it is adequate for her program).


What features do you like in existing designs ?
The fact that they are easier to sail than older ones and easier to live aboard as well

What features do you dislike in existing designs ?
Comfort is getting too much over seaworthyness and some essential settings or layout are ignored, therefore performance and reliability are going down.

Why ???

Explained above...
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Old 17-12-2009, 05:16   #42
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the best cruising yacht is the one I own. Because its paid for and everything works and I know it all over. Any other boat and I would have to do yet another shakedown period. No. I will go sooner with the boat I have.
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Old 17-12-2009, 10:39   #43
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After 8 years with the boat and a lot of fun and pleasure with no disapointment, we know that the logic was good for us...

That is one impressive vessel… all the more so because of your “sketch” of the design and building process… thanks for sharing…
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Old 18-12-2009, 15:35   #44
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Thanyou all for your input. In the near future I will post some preliminary drawings.
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Old 20-12-2009, 13:49   #45
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A view from the Caribbean

Good day:

A couple of observations after five years of cruising in the Caribbean.

There is almost every type of boat you can imagine cruising around down there. Some are surprisingly unsophisticated. I think the fit is so completely personal that it ia hard to offer good advice to anyone I don't know very well.

That said, I found a few things are critical.
Fresh Water. Bathing is people is easy. Bathing the boat is hard. The boat needs a bath often or corrosion becomes a plague. Big tanks or a fresh water maker are important. Water is about $0.10 per gallon.

Refrigeration is almost useless. It takes up a huge amount of space and uses a huge amount of power. The no-reefer work around is not too difficult.

Dinghy: Must be able to be stowed out of the water. On my 45 footers we had a big dinghy with a 15 hp outboard. Most of the time, the motor was more than we needed. Later, I had 5 hp motors on 8 ft soft bottoms and was more satisfied with the dinghy issues. You cannot tow it. Davits for heavy dinks are a hassle.

After five years on bigger boats (as a pro skipper), we are settling down to a boat under 35 ft. After 3 years with our tiny Aphrodite, we think it is about the right size. Simpler and smaller becomes compelling.


Yacht brokers and marine equipment vendors hate me!

More later.
Norman
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