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Old 15-12-2009, 11:35   #16
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Nice boat nick. Always liked the Daschew designs.

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
No question about it: a Sundeer 64:

Jedi in "sub marine" mode:

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 15-12-2009, 11:52   #17
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What do you look for in a long range cruising yacht ?

1) Beautiful.
2) As simple as possible. And that is pretty darn simple!
3) A great sail boat: light on the helm, responsive, great light air performance (its almost always light air), seaworthy, a smooth ride, minimum pounding upwind, excellent steering control. And it must surf down wind, not just wallow around.
4) A cockpit with protection. A very strong dodger, or better, a hard dodger.
5) LOTS of open space. Like room for a dinghy down below. Room to fix sails. Room to store the sails where all the water related to wet sails doesn't bother anything else.
6) Room all around the engine and all systems so its easy to work on them, and its not a stuffy, hot, constrained space. So better no engine room, but perhaps all the mechanicals under totally removable floor boards, or right in the middle of the cabin with a completely removeable soundproof box enclosure.
7) A big open galley: 12 linear feet of counter space, two feet on either side of the double sink and stove. Draining, ventilated cabinets so dishes, pots, pans, utensils, cups, glasses, etc can be put away wet. Trash can, and plenty of storage for trash. Engine driven refrigeration. Located for minimum motion, maximum view, maximum ventilation.
8) Sea berths: pipe berths that can be adjusted level are the best. Amidship.
9) Settees facing with a folding table in the middle for the saloon: works at sea and in port.
10) Exactly one head. Separate stall shower. Hot pressure water.

But to make it a boat I would actually own for more than a short time, it must also be very low cost to own and store. This means easily trailerable. This restricts beam to 8 to 9 feet depending on the domicile, but generally does not restrict length much nor displacement. Most domiciles allow 53 foot trailers to support the nearly world standard 53 foot containers. Displacement is not really a limit, as 20 to 25K lbs is pretty easy with a little practice, and the "good sailboat" aspect tends to force the displacement well under that level anyway

Also, its got to be very easy to sail, as we are getting older. Like most, I've got some wacky ideas on how to achieve that.

What boats do you admire ?

All the S&S designed Swan boats.
Most of the "70 foot sleds."
Olson 40.
A few performance cruising multihulls, such as those designed by M&M (Gunboat) and CSK. An updated CSK would be sweet.

What features do you like in existing designs ?
What features do you dislike in existing designs ?

Most cruising boats built over the past round of economic expansion are far, far to complex and focused on marina life. Most racing boats built over the same period suffer from horrible motion at sea and directional instability.

The performance cruisers of the 70s and early 80s were in some ways the sweet spot, but all of them are far too old to consider buying now for a long term ownership commitment, or long term/range cruising.

Nearly all boats are very, very under canvassed. Far better to be able to set a cloud of sail, and be able to efficiently shorten sail, than to always depend on the iron genny.

Why ???

If its not beautiful and fun, its simply not worth it: lots of other ways to see the world and live the life.

If its too complicated or hard to work on or expensive to own, it stops being fun very quickly.
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:01   #18
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I'm surprised that keels have not been discussed more. I think that for a long distance offshore boat, a full keel is the only way to go. The tracking of a full keel should make it the only choice for a true blue water boat. I know they are usually slower, and most if not all are slow to react to rudder input, but for offshore the tracking abilities outweigh these negatives, IMHO. And a well designed full keeler has a more comfortable motion. Other than that, what has already been said.
You've opened up a can of worms there. I am agnostic. I like the idea of a performance wet side, but I agree with you about tracking and balance. I have been on many fin keelers and none of them balance as well as a full or modified full keeler. I know others will violently disagree, but I am just going on my own experience.
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:04   #19
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I know I've covered this in many other threads and you can check under the search engine after my signature but I'll just put in a quick response.

1) Fiberglass - ease of maintenance and repair (I've owned wood boats) and have had friends with steel and aluminum boats
2) Aft Cockpit - I can see everything on deck while facing forward (eye on traffic and sails)
3) 36 feet on deck or less - I can handle that size easily while single handing
4) Small diesel engine - I don't need a lot of auxiliary power while sailing
5) Sea worthy
6) Narrow beam - I like the motion of a narrow beam monohull. Heeling doesn't bother me
7) Tough
8) Performance oriented - I like a boat that can get out of its own way. Speed is a function of length of waterline but pointing ability and lightwind performance are a function of keel design and weight. DelMarrey had an excellent "first video" that showed my feelings about lightwind performance rather simply.
9) Cutter or sloop - I like the free aft area for fishing, less rigging, area for windvane and while sailing single handed not having to worry about the mizzen. I've owned a ketch.

Plus everything on a 35/36 is about half the cost of a 42 foot boat.

regards,
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:07   #20
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Nice boat nick. Always liked the Daschew designs.
That pilothouse looks fit for a stink boat!
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:09   #21
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I know I've covered this in many other threads and you can check under the search engine after my signature but I'll just put in a quick response.

1) Fiberglass - ease of maintenance and repair (I've owned wood boats) and have had friends with steel and aluminum boats
2) Aft Cockpit - I can see everything on deck while facing forward (eye on traffic and sails)
3) 36 feet on deck or less - I can handle that size easily while single handing
4) Small diesel engine - I don't need a lot of auxiliary power while sailing
5) Sea worthy
6) Narrow beam - I like the motion of a narrow beam monohull. Heeling doesn't bother me
7) Tough
8) Performance oriented - I like a boat that can get out of its own way. Speed is a function of length of waterline but pointing ability and lightwind performance are a function of keel design and weight. DelMarrey had an excellent "first video" that showed my feelings about lightwind performance rather simply.
9) Cutter or sloop - I like the free aft area for fishing, less rigging, area for windvane and while sailing single handed not having to worry about the mizzen. I've owned a ketch.

Plus everything on a 35/36 is about half the cost of a 42 foot boat.

regards,
I'll take the aft cockpit version of whatever you're having.
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:16   #22
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One other thing: Directional stability. This means deadrise to the hull and a skeg hung rudder. A full keel is not as nice as deadrise to the hull and a skeg hung rudder.

I don't like long keels because they just don't go upwind: windward performance is all about lift to drag, and that means high aspect ratio foils. Even a very deep but long keel is far worse in every way over a high aspect ratio keel (and rudder too).

I also don't like long keels because they have lots of wetted surface. This means more to clean, more to paint, and a lot slower light air performance which means more time under power. Yuck.

But a boat that has deadrise (a V shape along centerline) has natural directional stability. Add a skeg hung rudder, and you really have a boat that performs well, but sails itself well too. And if the boat has narrow beam, then it all works even better.

Those S&S designed Swans were great in this regard: weatherly, fast in light air (if they had tall rigs), responsive to the helm, and really, really easy to self steer. On these and similar boats we were able to self steer only by locking the helm, no autopilot, for hours on end, in anything from about 8 knots to gales. And those that did not have really fat midsections (those with narrow beam) would even surf without a hand on the helm. Great fun!
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:19   #23
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Quote:
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That pilothouse looks fit for a stink boat!
I really like the concepts that go into the Dashew boats, and they are undeniably effective, but in general, I don't care for the aesthetics.

But I sure that pilothouse is a wonderful place to be at sea!
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:23   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
1) Fiberglass - ease of maintenance and repair (I've owned wood boats) and have had friends with steel and aluminum boats
2) Aft Cockpit - I can see everything on deck while facing forward (eye on traffic and sails)
3) 36 feet on deck or less - I can handle that size easily while single handing
4) Small diesel engine - I don't need a lot of auxiliary power while sailing
5) Sea worthy
6) Narrow beam - I like the motion of a narrow beam monohull. Heeling doesn't bother me
7) Tough
8) Performance oriented - I like a boat that can get out of its own way. Speed is a function of length of waterline but pointing ability and lightwind performance are a function of keel design and weight. DelMarrey had an excellent "first video" that showed my feelings about lightwind performance rather simply.
9) Cutter or sloop - I like the free aft area for fishing, less rigging, area for windvane and while sailing single handed not having to worry about the mizzen. I've owned a ketch.

Plus everything on a 35/36 is about half the cost of a 42 foot boat.

regards,
That is a great list! I agree with all, except that I feel longer is always better. The cost is a function of displacement not length. Take that 36 foot displacement and make it 50 feet long...
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:29   #25
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The smallest , simplest you think you can get away with.
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:45   #26
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I am certainly in favor of:

1) my wife likes it.
2) Centre cockpit (a private spacious aft cabin)
3) Big enough to make sense for a cc i.e greater than 40 feet ( I would probably change to 45ft but maybe not)
4) lots tankage
5) strong and sea worthy
6) storage
7) pilot berths
8) an large engine room!!!! (I really like this)
9) set up for short handed sailing - I like a sailtrack that works effortlessly and lazy jacks with stack pack
10) space for a seperate area for each of my 2 kids

and I will add:

11. End boom sheeting because mid boom is too much work
12. A place to stow wet sails- like the kite when I have a slppy douse.
13. Inner forstay or cutter rig- how else can you set a storm jib when you have a furling 150% genny? Dont tell me about that ATN Gale Sail either.
14. Gas fired Instant Hot water heaters- Running the engine to make hot water blows.
15. Aft heads, already mentioned but separate shower compartments- The ideal place to dry foulies off watch without dragging through cabin.
16. 12v refridgeration a must- not a fan of using the engine to drive anything other than the prop.
17. Self sufficient energy production system via wind/solar/maybe shaft driven alternator, see the end of #16
18. Hard Top Biminis are sweet
19. Dodgers are a must
20. Fully enclosable cockpits for cooler climes
21. Large Anchor lockers that do not drain to the bilge.
22. Sufficient volume in the bow to support using #21 with chain etc.
23. Im a fan of internally ballasted long-fin keels ( This is suitable compromise IMHO between the full keel and the fin)
24. Rudders attached to a full skeg that do not ground before the keel


Two boats I am very fond of: Wauquiez Amphitrite 43 & Stevens 47/Hylas 49 (not the frers boat)

Great Thread...
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:47   #27
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sneuman has a good example of a great boat. Just one foot too long, oh well, the canoe stern explains it. : )
regards
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Old 15-12-2009, 12:54   #28
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I hope I do not sound like a grumpy old bugger but we've gone through this soooooooo many times.

Facts are if you choose to cruise for leisure and pleasure, you'll spend most time in light airs. Circumnavigate taking the most travelled route sees you having to sail in sub 15 knots nearly all the way.

Facts are if you choose to cruise you'll also spend 95% of your time at achor or in harbour. Most places on that best route circumnavigation are hot.

So you decide if a narrow, slow, heavy narrow and low volume airless full keel yacht is going to meet those needs, or a more modern faster, easier driven and roomier craft?

No worries in you choosing the older style, just be sure you do it for the right reasons. For the style. For the varnish. For the sweet lines. But not for cruising.

Enjoy making your own decisions, but best be sure they are informed decisions.

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Old 15-12-2009, 14:32   #29
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Some great opions and ideas comming out. Many are re-confirming my opinions some are making me question some ideas I had. IT'S ALL GREAT !!!!
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Old 15-12-2009, 14:39   #30
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Talking Found already !

Well,

I ended to look for as soon as I owned my boat...see the website link.
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