Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-07-2005, 20:39   #16
Registered User
 
kingfish's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 76
Well it seems that the tides have changed and the well wishers have come out. Thanks to all for the good words. And yes I do study Jim Baldwin's site, he does have very good ideas.
Deck stepped mast: Gords illistration of what can happen to your mast is how I see it hapening as well, So in either deck or keel stepp you are pretty much screwed. The only mod. I have done to my mast was: On my cat 30 there is a vertical wood box Beam that transfers the wieght of the mast to the keel. I removed one side of this box and inserted a stainless 1" tube in the middle to help carry the load. I probly did not need to do this but I belive in double redundency. I needed to get to the wires that run through there so I figured I out to do it while it was open.
Companionway hatch. I have three diferent hatches that I choose from. I mostly use the original 3 part wood slats. easy in easy out. Secondly I built a one peice metal gate, so you can lock up the house and still have ventalation. Thirdly my storm door. 3/16ths stainless plate with a opening port hole, This plate can also attach to the support bars for the hatch. With both of those in place she is fort knox!
I am still working on my ground tackel, I built a bow pulpit that holds two 33 pound plow anchors with 100 foot of chain and 200 feet of rode each. I have a rope and chain manual windlass to help bring them up. I should say. The bow area of the cat 30 is a real pain in the ass. not allo of room to work in. Thats thr reason for my new pulpit. also the anchor locker hatch was cut down the middel and hinged on both sides. Originally it was a single piece tha opened to one side. not very convient. I also have two 25 pound cqr's that I keep for my stern anchors each with 25 feet of chain and 150 rode. These are not easly launched or retrived but I have them there in case I need them. If anybodie has a great way of storing and retrieving anchors on the stern, I am sure we would all love to hear it.
Other mods you all might be intereted in.
Double forstay: This allows me to keep both my genny and working jib hanked on at all times. (Idont like furlers)
Removable cutter rig: I installed a pad eye on the fordeck and changed my topping lift halyard from rope to rope and wire. If I want to fly my storm jib I just attach the halyard to the deck, tighten wire and hank on the storm jib. This also works well for light air's it gives me just a littel bit more sail. And my boat likes power forward.
Chain plates: Built new bigger and better chain plates and also backing plate for all six stayes.
I getting long on this so Cheers
D
__________________

__________________
Few who come to the island leave them; They grow grey where they alighted; The palm shades and the trade wind fans them till they die
-R L Stevenson
kingfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2005, 23:16   #17
Registered User
 
boredinthecity's Avatar

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Not at home- gone cruising
Posts: 79
Images: 2
Jeff
Simply that you pointed out that a boat that i realy like because of its history would not do what i wanted to do in the future (my word not yours). When i looked at the boat before singing the final contract i looked at issues that i would have otherwise glossed over. It was a "project boat" and i wouldnt have "discoved " the faults untill i had put about 2 years work and tens of thousands of dollars into it.

The advice you gave was not on if i should buy the boat, it was on what you thought its charistics may be. You were not entirly correct as you would have needed to put a lot of $%$@# words in to describe it as i did in sea trials.

This is why this is a good forum, in fact the best forum that i have found and why it needs to be looked after

Thanks for the advice from everone on deck

Paul
__________________

__________________
boredinthecity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 01:26   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
Starbuck's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 827
Rick, I'm gratified. (Opps, or course I mean Paul (8/2/05))
______

King, I don't know if the tides have changed. But more of your boat has come over the horizon for us to see.

I'm familiar with the C30 rig: four lowers & four uppers to the masthead. I have read about these two mods (double headstay and a staysail stay) in other places, and find them very intriguing. Would you mind answering a couple of questions?

Do you think the double-headstay would work with a furler for the genoa and a bagged, hanked-on, ready-to-go 90-100% working jib? Would the drum diameter force the stays so far apart so as to foul up pointing and sheeting angles, leaving one with better performance on one tack and worse on another? And I can only imagine what the masthead would have to look like to keep those stays parallel to the centerline. (Okay, who makes the smallest drum?) lol

I know this is outside your direct experience, but I'd like yoiur thoughts anyway

I'm assuming you had the masthead and headstay attachment mods custom done. What kind of shop knows how to approach this? Can they just work off sketches? I'm really puzzled here, and it's fine if you laugh at me.

Do you run sheets for each headsail, or re-attach one set during sail changes?
______

The attachments for each end of the staysail stay seem pretty straightforward. But how do you get away with running a staysail without babystays (ed: I meant to say running backstays) to keep the mast in column? Or did you just not mention that yet? : )

Anyone else who wants to jump in on this one is welcome.
__________________
s/y Elizabeth— Catalina 34 MkII
"Man must have just enough faith in himself to have adventures, and just enough doubt of himself to enjoy them." — G. K. Chesterfield
Starbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 02:22   #19
Registered User
 
kingfish's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 76
I never really thought of a way to add a furler to the twin forstays, and now that you have gotton me thinking of it... I would imagine it could be done, But it would present a big chaffing problem. I originally thought that when I added the double stays I was going to also put a furling drum on to furel my cruising spinnacker. But I ran out of room. So I still do it the old fasion way with a sock. I do two sheets to both head sails, also I can use one of those to raise the staysail. As far as baby stays go, My topping sheet exits the mast between the upper and lower shrouds closer to the lowers. The sail is so small that I have not seen any comprmise to the center of the rig. Ive used that sail in 30+ kn winds and was not worried. If it blew at 60+ I may be somewhat concerned. But I think at that point my sails would be the least of my worries.
I custom make all the parts I use. Just today I picked up a piece of stainless plate( used) and am going to make some stuff this weekend. If I need stainless welded I will cut the parts and I take it to a local welder. ( shop around for thses guys, it can get expensive) By me making the parts it cuts down the cost.
Cherrs
D
__________________
Few who come to the island leave them; They grow grey where they alighted; The palm shades and the trade wind fans them till they die
-R L Stevenson
kingfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 02:43   #20
Registered User
 
kingfish's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 76
After looking at some tech drawings I am calling my removable staysail stay by the wrong term. for lack of the correct term, Its the sheet that is to hold up the spinnacker pole. I still cant get all these terms right. I usally decride them in my mind like "the line that raises the sail" I know its amature but....oh well. when you never sail with a crew it dosent matter what you call it.
Cheers
D
__________________
Few who come to the island leave them; They grow grey where they alighted; The palm shades and the trade wind fans them till they die
-R L Stevenson
kingfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 05:48   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Jeff, if you want to fit a furler, you need to go for a single forestay. Depending on age of your rigging, it is a good idea to replace the forestay as you fit a new furler, then it is all a "known". Plus the forestay needs to be SST, in case yours is not. The swiveling furler track will take the galv off a galv forestay. Now if I may add in Kingfish to this. There is nothing wrong with a Head furler. Technology has allowed for some very well made units, capable of standing to any wind the sail can handle. The big advantage is being able to carry one BIG headsail like a Genoa and be able to furl it to suit the wind strength. I wouldn't use a tightly furled Genoa as a storm sail. One it's not quite heavey enough and two, should something go wrong and it unfurled, it could be desarstrouse.
Also, I suggest you get a book or do a google on "sailing terms" and see what comes up. But you need to know some basic names for items. If not, one it gets mighty confusing for us, but most importantly, each item on a boat is named the way it is, because each does somehting particular. Old day sailors, the ones that couldn't even work out what was their left or right, let alone anything else, came up with terms to best describe all the ropes and sails and bits and pieces. Now some of those things are gone along with the ole timers, as the Tall ships are something we only get to see rarely.
But basicaly, a Sheet is any rope you attached to the clew of a sail and use to trim it. Any rope/wire that hauls a sail up and down the mast is a halyard. And any rope/wire that stops the mast from falling over the side, is called a stay.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 09:23   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
Starbuck's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 827
More Questions for Kingfish

Alan, I don't think Kingfish has any bias against furlers: reading his last post informs us that he intended to install one, but the twin headstays prevented it. He's going a his own way and establishing his own priorities and preferences. I admire that. As for me, it was just a little wistful thinking outside the box, but thanks for the standard recommendations.
______

King, fabricating your own parts does let you play with less expense. I'm not quite that handy.

I've seen furlers in tandem (fore & aft), but in these set-ups the forestay was positioned so close to the headstay (like 18" behind) that it would be impossible to tack without rolling in the headsail completely. That's what prompted my question about side-by-side twin headstays. I know they've been around since the days of self-steering direct downwind courses with two wing-on-wing headsails. But that rig only requires a couple of inches of separation between stays. I guess trying to fit a roller to one of two side-by-side headstays to deal with all that genoa acreage is impractical. Still… it would be nice.

You said you're using your topping lift (that you've switched out for a rope-wire halyard) as the staysail halyard. You now have it exiting the front of the mast at the staysail attachment, instead of running up and out the masthead, right? It would have to be. Did you install a sheave (pulley) at the exit, or just something smooth that wouldn't chafe that rope/wire halyard doing a sharp 120° turn?

And what has replaced the topping lift? Do you have a solid vang, supporting the boom?

Yeah, that salty nomenclature is hell, isn't it? Don't worry, it comes after a while, and some are more concerned with it (I'm one of those) than others. It's certainly no requirement to enter the dance. I'm understanding you just fine.
__________________
s/y Elizabeth— Catalina 34 MkII
"Man must have just enough faith in himself to have adventures, and just enough doubt of himself to enjoy them." — G. K. Chesterfield
Starbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 17:34   #23
Registered User
 
kingfish's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 76
Spinnacker topping lift, Thats the correct name of the wire that I make into the temperary stay for my storm jib. It exits the front of the mast just a littel above the spreaders. It is on a shive so it has no problem making the turn. I have installed a small winch at the base of the mast where the other end comes out. once its pulled tight a jammer holds it in place. On the deck is a stainless pad eye that the new stay ( spinnacker topping lift) attaches to. Then I use one of my jib halyards (I have two) to raise the sail. Now this is kind of tricky. The jib halyard comes off the mast head so it runs at a different angle than the new stay. In light air there is no problem raising the sail, It just binds a littel. To make the jib halyard pull up at the same angle so that there is no bind, i take a part I made, (two shives connected together) you run the new stay wire though one shive and the jib halrad though the other. As you pull on the halyard the shive rolls up the stay wire and makes the angle of pull more even. Once the sail is all the way up, the double shive ends up being almost at the point of entry of the wire into the mast. On my boat there is not allot of room when the sail is up. (the stays and mast get in the way) so before I bought the storm jib I had to measure properly and make sure that when tacking the jib stays clear of the rigging.

I have no problem with furlurs in general, I like having my two sails ready and avalible at all times, I think my decision was based on cost, and cost to replace and having one more moving part on my boat that can break and need repair. Just one mans opinion

For me, Being able to fabicate or do the work on my boat myself, is the only way I can afford to do this stuff. Its not aways right the first time. Its trial and error most of the time.
Cheers
D
__________________
Few who come to the island leave them; They grow grey where they alighted; The palm shades and the trade wind fans them till they die
-R L Stevenson
kingfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2005, 20:35   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Err, must have been seeing things.I thought I read that he didn't like Furlers, but can't find it now. Sorry.
The main reason I fitted a Furler was the size of the genoa. It's huge on my boat and as we are just a couple sailing, it would mean I would have great difficulty handling it. It was the best decision I ever made.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2005, 01:01   #25
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,585
Re: More Questions for Kingfish

Quote:
I've seen furlers in tandem (fore & aft), but in these set-ups the forestay was positioned so close to the headstay (like 18" behind) that it would be impossible to tack without rolling in the headsail completely.
This inner stay is called a Solent Stay. And you do have to roll up the outside sail to tack. It is an appropriate rig for offshore, allowing you to have two headsails, hanked or roller furled, ready to go.
__________________
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2005, 04:06   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
Starbuck's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 827
Paul, I beg to differ here, though I don't want to get lost in splitting hairs. Here's the terminology as I understand it:

The front-most stay is a headstay, by virtue of being in the front, and carries the headsail (whether genoa or jib, it's the headsail).

A second stay close to the stem (as I'm describing) is a forestay, and carries the foresail, aka the forestaysail.

Since a sloop traditionally flies only one sail forward of the mast, the terms forestay and headstay are interchangeable on a sloop; there is no distinction. But the term "foresail" just disappears. On a sloop, whether you call the front-most stay a forestay or a headstay, it carries a headsail, not a foresail.

A stay rigged much closer to the mast (and I'm sure there is a traditional rule of thumb about spacing, or what fraction of the mast the head attachment claims, but I'll venture to say the deck attachment is closer to mast than to the stem) is a staysail stay, and carries the staysail.

The term forestay & forestaysail harken back to the days of working sailing ships. On a personal yacht, even a cutter is normally rigged with just two forward stays; the headstay & the staysail stay. Recently, there have been "double headstay" sloops (the rig I muse about above); the headstay carries the huge genny, which can only be furled so much before it becomes so baggy it's useless; then another stay mounted very closely behind it but still well forward, with its own furler, carries the working jib (though since it's not on the headstay, the term "jib" could be questioned now— lol). This second, forward stay cannot be a headstay by definition, and it's way too forward to be a staysail stay. The only proper thing to do is to remember history, and call it a forestay.

A solent stay is a variation on this theme. It is an intermediate stay which is attached at the head of the masthead rig, instead of a fraction of the mast, as a forestay or staysail stay would be. It's angle is more acute than the headstay because of this. It's advantage is that it can be installed without supplementary running backstays to compensate for a staysail stay bending the center portion of the mast out of column, and so installing one is a much friendlier DIY project. The disadvantage of a Solent sail is that it is useful through a narrower range of wind angles than a staysail.

Okay, where did I err? lol

I happened to read a similar discussion on another board. The thread was graced by the two cents of Jack Tyler, who describes installing a Solent stay on his Pearson 424 while in Europe, where I gather this feature is quite common. His site contains many thoughtful articles, and his contributions to boards like this one are always full of information borne of real experience.
__________________
s/y Elizabeth— Catalina 34 MkII
"Man must have just enough faith in himself to have adventures, and just enough doubt of himself to enjoy them." — G. K. Chesterfield
Starbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2005, 06:12   #27
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,585
Quote:
CaptainJeff once whispered in the wind:
A second stay close to the stem (as I'm describing) is a forestay, and carries the foresail, aka the forestaysail.
......
A stay rigged much closer to the mast (and I'm sure there is a traditional rule of thumb about spacing, or what fraction of the mast the head attachment claims, but I'll venture to say the deck attachment is closer to mast than to the stem) is a staysail stay, and carries the staysail.
........
A solent stay is a variation on this theme. It is an intermediate stay which is attached at the head of the masthead rig, instead of a fraction of the mast, as a forestay or staysail stay would be.
......
Okay, where did I err? lol
I doubt that you did error. From the decription above, it sounded to me like we were talking about adding a stay that was near the mast head and 18in or so behind the head stay. I usually refer to this as a solent stay. If it is attached significantly lower than the mast head and is farther back from the headstay, the it is an inner (fore) stay for a staysail.

Paul
__________________
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2005, 19:40   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
Starbuck's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 827
It's said that a picture is worth a thousand words. I'm convinced it often takes a thousand words to create an accurate picture in one's mind. As Alan might say, No Worries!
__________________
s/y Elizabeth— Catalina 34 MkII
"Man must have just enough faith in himself to have adventures, and just enough doubt of himself to enjoy them." — G. K. Chesterfield
Starbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2005, 14:40   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1
Kingfish, do you have a website or pictures posted on your upgrades and mods? What is the name of your boat?


thanks
__________________
sunsetnkc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2005, 18:45   #30
Registered User
 
kingfish's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 76
I do not have a digital camera, But when I finish the mods I will borrow someones and take pics. when I do I will post them somewhere. My girls name is Chapter Two,
Cheers
D
__________________

__________________
Few who come to the island leave them; They grow grey where they alighted; The palm shades and the trade wind fans them till they die
-R L Stevenson
kingfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Second Thoughts on the Ideal Cruising Boat" Stede General Sailing Forum 9 19-09-2004 22:13
Convenient Knife - "The Boat Knife" Sonosailor Provisioning: Food & Drink 0 24-05-2004 09:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.