The Perfect 60' to 65' Cruising Boat

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Oyster 625 is being build to fulfill the market described. BUT... I was on an Oyster 62 just last week because I was considering the purchase of a 62, and discovered all I would get for the extra money was crews quarters and the added headache of dealing with heavier objects like the sails. The Oyster 56 and 575 actually work better for a cruising couple because the crew isn't needed, so no space is dedicated to having them.

We've decided to stick with what we have. The boat is finally equipped perfect for the two of us, and for 3-4 others who might visit. If necessary, the two of us can manage taking down the sails and my wife is capable of hoisting me up the mast. A good friend who's chartered his Swan 65 for ten years, also advised me against any sailboat larger than 60ft. It's not the docking or sailing the vessel that's the problem, it's managing and dealing with the heavier objects.

I love the Holman & Pye Oyster 62 -- floating sex. I came very close to buying an H&P Oyster 485; had a deposit paid. But with time I realize that Oysters are not for me -- they are solid fiberglass, 4" thick, plain fiberglass with no exotic materials, and are heavy as lead. To make up for it, they have huge sail plans. As a result -- just what you experienced -- you have giant sails to wrestle with. And moderate performance. They have fully skegged rudders. I want something lighter, stronger, and faster.

By the way, the "heavier objects" bit is another argument for the genius of Steve Dashew. Even Beowulf has a beam of only 16' (like my boat), displacement of only 27 tons (slightly more than my boat). To move that through the water, he doesn't need a giant sail plan. And to boot, Beowulf is a ketch, with the sail plan broken up a bit. Very, very interesting design.

[estarzinger]

^^

Realize that the ultimate logical conclusion of dashew's thinking is an 80' power boat.

When steve and I were testing drogues on his stern deck (on the power boat), Beth and Linda were up on the fly bridge, and Linda leaned over to beth and quietly said "this is the only one of his boats that I have not been scared by"..

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Bah! I must have 5 knot VMG to windward! For that I need a real sailing machine, bulb keel, probably carbon rig.

Dockhead, for a cruising 60 - 65 footer it is rather impossible. Assume tacking through 90 degrees and add something for a leeway.
You will need a boat sailing upwind, in broad spectrum of conditions, maintaining 90 - 95 % of hull speed all the time.
May be on a racer with big crew, but on cruiser?
Call the boat "Unicorn"
You need 80 footer to fulfill this demand.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by weavis

There is no perfect boat or perfect size.
However lots and lots of money will make it work in any situation.

Lol! Ain't that the truth!! Unfortunately, that means we have to set about earning it. A singularly dreary task

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Dockhead, for a cruising 60 - 65 footer it is rather impossible. Assume tacking through 90 degrees and add something for a leeway.
You will need a boat sailing upwind, in broad spectrum of conditions, maintaining 90 - 95 % of hull speed all the time.
May be on a racer with big crew, but on cruiser?
Call the boat "Unicorn"
You need 80 footer to fulfill this demand.

You alone picked up on the main challenge in my List. The hardest one, and also, the most non-negotiable.

Your math, however, is out.

With a 90 degree tacking angle, you only need boat speed of 7 knots to achieve 5 knots VMG to windward. With 95 degrees, you need 7.4. With 100, you need 7.8. This is not 90 -- 95% of hull speed at all. 7.8 knots is only 84% of hull speed even of my present boat. For a boat with a waterline of 60 feet, this speed will be achievable on a wide range of true wind speeds if -- IF -- you get the sails, sheeting angles, and so forth, exactly right.

[Jim Cate]

In the midst of all this luxury and go fast stuff, Dockhead, you relegate the professional crew to a tiny cabin with pipe berths??? My limited knowledge of such crews suggests that unless you paid well above the norm you would have some difficulty in retaining GOOD quality crew/skippers when you treat them so poorly. Would YOU want to live like that?

As to the design... well, it seems like you are trying to get a quart into a pint pot, and most such efforts fail in the long run.

Dream on, mate!

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^

Realize that the ultimate logical conclusion of dashew's thinking is an 80' power boat.

When steve and I were testing drogues on his stern deck (on the power boat), Beth and Linda were up on the fly bridge, and Linda leaned over to beth and quietly said "this is the only one of his boats that I have not been scared by"..

You were testing drogues with Steve Dashew?? Wow; I'm impressed.

His 80' powerboat is brilliant -- fabulous. I love it. But there's one small problem -- I like to sail. So I'll stick with Beowulf A fabulous artifact, with beam and displacement similar to my present boat, but cranking out 300 mile days day in and day out . . .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

In the midst of all this luxury and go fast stuff, Dockhead, you relegate the professional crew to a tiny cabin with pipe berths??? My limited knowledge of such crews suggests that unless you paid well above the norm you would have some difficulty in retaining GOOD quality crew/skippers when you treat them so poorly. Would YOU want to live like that?

As to the design... well, it seems like you are trying to get a quart into a pint pot, and most such efforts fail in the long run.

Dream on, mate!

Jim

Well, getting quarts into pint pots is the essence of engineering, isn't it? If quart pots were lying around, there would be no need for any effort in design, right?

As to crew -- I have no aspiration to having a professional skipper. I'm the skipper, and don't intend to give up my position. More of a Boat Boy, jack of all trades, great at fixing things, taking the odd watch, sourcing parts in port instead of me . I think a pipe cot will be fine

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You alone picked up on the main challenge in my List. The hardest one, and also, the most non-negotiable.

Your math, however, is out.

With a 90 degree tacking angle, you only need boat speed of 7 knots to achieve 5 knots VMG to windward. With 95 degrees, you need 7.4. With 100, you need 7.8. This is not 90 -- 95% of hull speed at all. 7.8 knots is only 84% of hull speed even of my present boat. For a boat with a waterline of 60 feet, this speed will be achievable on a wide range of true wind speeds if -- IF -- you get the sails, sheeting angles, and so forth, exactly right.

Hull speed of 60 - 65 footer (LOD) will be (with quite traditional hull You want to have) in the 10 - 11 knots bracket (waterline of about 16.5 m to 18 m.)
Looking at polar diagrams for many boats You will notice that highest VMG is abot 5 - 10 degrees out of tacking angle. Add modest 5 % for leeway, and Your COG will be, hopefully, about 55 degrees from the wind (and this will be very good result in real world). In higher waves You will be probably close to 60 degrees. So my math may be not so out as for first glance

[nimblemotors]

So then WHY do you want to sail?

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Nice. I like power cats, but I like to sail, so no thank

Not that it's any cheaper. After 3000 miles of sailing this year, I realize that i have incurred 20% to 30% wear of my sails and running rigging, and I now must order new sails this year. If you figure $50,000 for a set of sails (larger boats -- sails go up geometrically in cost), that amounts to maybe even $5 a mile. I can motor much cheaper than that at about $2 a mile for diesel fuel.

Maybe smaller boats can sail cheaper than motoring. Smaller sails can be lighter weight, so cheaper out of proportion to their area. But not larger boats

[weavis]

This will solve all your problems.

If you REALLY need to feel like your in a mono...... I could make you a stand with a thirty degree angle...... just turn it around depending which tack your on...

MULTIHULLS: New Lagoon 52 Catamaran For Sale - YouTube

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by avb3

How big a winch do you have or is the purchase significantly different than one-one (can't imagine that on a mast)?

I tie a snatch block onto the mast winch and run it back via the jib sheet blocks to the electric primary. The safety is run the same way on the opposite side except there she uses the winch manually. I ascend 4-5ft at a time and much slower at the spreaders. We rehearse on deck prior to me going airborne.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I tie a snatch block onto the mast winch and run it back via the jib sheet blocks to the electric primary. The safety is run the same way on the opposite side except there she uses the winch manually. I ascend 4-5ft at a time and much slower at the spreaders. We rehearse on deck prior to me going airborne.

But then kenomac is only 80lb and 4'9 tall.............

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Hull speed of 60 - 65 footer (LOD) will be (with quite traditional hull You want to have) in the 10 - 11 knots bracket (waterline of about 16.5 m to 18 m.)
Looking at polar diagrams for many boats You will notice that highest VMG is abot 5 - 10 degrees out of tacking angle. Add modest 5 % for leeway, and Your COG will be, hopefully, about 55 degrees from the wind (and this will be very good result in real world). In higher waves You will be probably close to 60 degrees. So my math may be not so out as for first glance

On my present boat -- 47 foot waterline, so 9.5 knots hull speed, and blown out Dacron sails, and questionable sail trimming, but with a clean hull at least, we get tacking angles of 100 degrees on a good day, at max VMG to windward, and with boat speed of 7 knots or more, so I'm sure that I can do much better than that with 10 feet more of water line length, laminate sails, good sheeting position, etc. I agree with you that normal cruising boats don't achieve this, but I'm really sure that it is attainable. Maybe even on my present boat.

The struggle is against the damned 60 degrees you mention, which is about the point where you start to lose the ability to realistically make miles to windward. This is what we must overcome, blood out of the nose (to use the Slavic expression, krov' iz nos), that is, at any cost. With a dirty hull and blown out sails, 60 degrees is what I ended up with sometimes, and it was maddening, tacking back and forth, the desired landfall just over the horizon, and not getting any closer . The knock from motion of the water surface with the wind -- common in the Baltic -- was the final blow. But waterline length overcomes a multitude of sins -- boat speed is the key to getting upwind in any case (leeway goes away, too, with enough boat speed). A clean hull. Laminate sails. And by God, we will get upwind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

So then WHY do you want to sail?

You're asking that on a sailing forum?

Certainly, not to save money.